@scottalanmiller said in Which comes first Laws or Lawyers:

@DustinB3403 said in Which comes first Laws or Lawyers:

@scottalanmiller said in Which comes first Laws or Lawyers:

@DustinB3403 said in Which comes first Laws or Lawyers:

How is that difficult to understand? Genghis Khan ruled over a huge area, and made law. Law which was written with blood and force.
He wasn't a politician, he was a dictator who made laws to suit him.

And he wasn't a lawyer and may not have thought about the laws, etc. How is he connected to your point?

He was a dictator, forcibly making people do his bidding, he wrote law to unite the land in his control.

that's an assumption. He made laws, did he think through them? Maybe, maybe not. Nothing forces him to have done so. As he seized power, nothing implies that he possessed any understanding of what making laws would do.

But you're making the assumption he knew not what he was doing, clearly to document something you must have some concept on SOME level of what the hell is going on.

No matter how bat**** crazy you are as in your example.

If there is a broken VM, shut it down.

Do you have TeamViewer... I'd rather just help you so no additional damage is done?

@scottalanmiller said in Which comes first Laws or Lawyers:

@DustinB3403 said in Which comes first Laws or Lawyers:

How is that difficult to understand? Genghis Khan ruled over a huge area, and made law. Law which was written with blood and force.
He wasn't a politician, he was a dictator who made laws to suit him.

And he wasn't a lawyer and may not have thought about the laws, etc. How is he connected to your point?

He was a dictator, forcibly making people do his bidding, he wrote law to unite the land in his control.

He by himself was government and lawyer, judge, jury and executioner.

Therefore politicians, lawyers laws all came about at the same time.

Only until people united and said we need to sort this shit out, did different roles come to exist.

@Carnival-Boy said in Paying to upgrade from Windows 7 to Windows 10:

Upgrading 3rd party software isn't always possible, or desirable. We have an application that requires MDAC (Microsoft Data Access Components). I couldn't find any way of installing this in Windows 10, never mind running it in compatibility mode.

Not to sound mean, but if the software will only work with MDAC, why continue to use the software? That seems like a major barrier to being able to stay current and secure if this software just doesn't work anywhere else.

@scottalanmiller said in Which comes first Laws or Lawyers:

@DustinB3403 said in Which comes first Laws or Lawyers:

I'm of the camp that you have to understand how to preside over others. <-- This means that you don't believe that there is such a concept of a king or anyone that can seize power through any means but understanding how to preside? This is a statement so weird I'm not sure how to dispute it. It's like saying that the earth can't be round because, it just can't be.

To do that, you'd write laws into existence that are either for your benefit or the benefit of the community. This to me means you have to understand what a law is / could be (before laws existed) so you could create them to reap the benefits. What law of the universe dictates that laws have to be written to a certain benefit? And moreso, what additional law states that you have to understand them to attempt that?

This is layer after layer of disconnected assumption that is demonstrably untrue in the real world. Sure this can happen and does, but nothing "makes" it happen. Anyone can seize power, even a robot in theory, without any understanding. That person or thing could make laws, potentially arbitrarily. Even if they weren't arbitrary nothing says that they will study or understand the ramifications or goals.

And then, at the end, even if all of this were true, nothing connects these things to being lawyers.

In remarks to the bold statements.

How is that difficult to understand? Genghis Khan ruled over a huge area, and made law. Law which was written with blood and force.
He wasn't a politician, he was a dictator who made laws to suit him.

Government.

Point 2 - laws exist in modern form to say "you can't murder" religion is essentially law, but before laws existed. Religion has been around long before "law" yet you accept those to be fundamentals of law. Why?

People created these to protect themselves / others and to punish for doing "bad" things.

If anyone hasn't upgraded to Windows 10 at this point, it's purely on them for not doing so. Businesses included.

Make em pay for it, ijits...

@coliver I understand this.

But to have the idea of laws, you must be a "lawyer" (creation of laws, not modern well established politicians and lawyers)

and to be very clear, this is a question of which came first.

Laws or Lawyers.

I would say lawyers must've come first to even have the idea of a "law" even if the Lawyer was a king of some country.

@scottalanmiller migth I ask you try doing this very same thing on an XS installation and outline exactly what you do so that others can replicate it.

As it is now, I'm beyond upset with just trying to get this going.

@scottalanmiller said in Which comes first Laws or Lawyers:

@coliver said in Which comes first Laws or Lawyers:

@DustinB3403 said in Which comes first Laws or Lawyers:

I'm of the camp that you have to understand how to preside over others.

To do that, you'd write laws into existence that are either for your benefit or the benefit of the community. This to me means you have to understand what a law is / could be (before laws existed) so you could create them to reap the benefits.

People do that everyday though. We call them politicians.

Exactly. This is done, but not by lawyers. By definition, they can't be lawyers because a lawyer doesn't create laws.

So a politicians can't also be a lawyer or the opposite?

That is clearly wrong.

OK I'm done with this trial......

I'm just going in circles and before I break something I need a breather...

I'm of the camp that you have to understand how to preside over others.

To do that, you'd write laws into existence that are either for your benefit or the benefit of the community. This to me means you have to understand what a law is / could be (before laws existed) so you could create them to reap the benefits.

Yep, that should work and I don't have to fuss with trying to pass USB through the host to a VM.

@scottalanmiller said in Which comes first Laws or Lawyers:

Since a lawyer must study law to be a lawyer, until there are laws, the entire concept of a lawyer is moot. Laws can exist without lawyers, but lawyers cannot exist without laws.

But laws cannot exist without people who create laws. And since lawyers study law, laws are made by lawyers who have the hat of "politician".

@stacksofplates This is completely outside of the conversation at hand. There are tools which work to P2V a system, what does it matter if it's not from XenServer?

I'm really just trying to follow the logic here. But if you don't have a recommendation for the OP, why divert the topic?

Scott stance is that you have to have politicians to create law, my stance is you have to have lawyers to create law who then become politicians.

His rational (probably best explained by him) is that society needs to have laws in which to live by, which law is created by government, not by lawyers.

My argument is that you need to have lawyers (or sudo-lawyers) to create government to then create laws and politicians.

@stacksofplates said in Converting to a virtual environment:

@DustinB3403 said in Converting to a virtual environment:

@stacksofplates Xenserver has XenConvert.

Ya that hasn't worked since 6.0

You asked what tools XenServer has, that is the tool, the reasons why it was dropped (more or less) is because everyone else and their cousin has a P2V tool that works well enough to the open format.

Why put effort into something when there are already other tools that work perfectly well?

So @scottalanmiller and I were having a side-bar conversation from some thread here (drawing a blank at the moment) about how English law is terrible and it quickly devolved into a which came first argument.

Scott's stance is that politicians exist and create laws and lawyers.

My stance is you need capable people to argue over an issue and draft law (who then become politicians and lawyers)

Which came first, laws or lawyers?

@stacksofplates Xenserver has XenConvert.

I just configured my Android tablet as a softphone, and got it setup with extension 8003.

Now from anywhere in the house I could call from any of the rooms to any other device I setup.

Now more need to shout.

That's so awesome!

<nerd moment>

I don't have an anger issue with you at all, I do have an issue with your "you're an idiot" mentality of everyone else. drop the piss-poor attitude and type without the rage and have an adult conversation.

It's that simple.