Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment
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@wrx7m The problem with this is you generally patch one host THEN patch the other. Unless you spread out your hypervisor patches, and driver/firmware patching on hosts by 90 days this isn't really going to work. For DR failover/failback it's even problematic (will not support DR testing)
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Note, this is why I recommend people go talk to Microsoft directly about licensing, and if you work for a MSP use a distributor (like Ingram micro) who will "guarantee" the solution will work and will eat the cost to make it whole. If you are doing any kind of real volume with Microsoft work with one of the LAR/LSPs who do this for a living.
Asking people on the internet who (mostly) have never resold Microsoft licensing or had to help dozens of people through audits is honestly much less productive than talking to a LSP/LAR who this is a core part of their practice.
This is different for Oracle because their sales teams misrepresent the licensing and commit fraud. For Oracle licensing talk to House of Brick, or VLSS.
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@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
Note, this is why I recommend people go talk to Microsoft directly about licensing,
That doesn't work. MS is famous for getting this wrong and stating that they aren't advisers so screw you if they told you bad info. Nearly everyone we talk to that has gone this path gets screwed because MS doesn't provide advisement on this, point blank.
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@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
...and if you work for a MSP use a distributor (like Ingram micro) who will "guarantee" the solution will work and will eat the cost to make it whole.
This is the real thing to do. You need someone that will indemnify you if you follow their instructions.
Although it's very easy to look up. But if you aren't going to be the one doing the research, you can't use MS. But loads of firms provide this service.
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@wrx7m said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@jaredbusch said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@scottalanmiller said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
You get lots of silly extra like training and "support", but it's all minor. Sometimes certain features like maybe VDI are included with SA only, in those cases it can be a bigger deal.
There are vMotion implications on SA for the non-OS bits sometimes (SQL/Exchange, you need it to move a host, otherwise you will need to high water mark license all the hosts).
I have no idea what this means, especially the "high water mark license" part.
If you do not have SA, then when you move a virtual instance of Exchange, Skype for Business, SharePoint, or SQL from one physical host to another, the receiving host must already have a license to cover the virtual instance. The license does not travel with the virtual machine.
If you have SA the license can move between hosts (Note this is NOT true for Windows Server licensing, just SQL/Exchange etc).
What I mean for High water mark is The number of OSE's licensed for a server needs to be licensed for the maximum number of servers that run there in all vMotion scenario's (Unless you license a host for Datacenter Edition).
Wait, so if I have a VM running Exchange or SQL, I need to have SA in addition to having licensed the cores of each host server? Sorry, I've only just now learned about SA so I'm still wrapping my head around it.
If you have SA on your Server 2016 license, you are allowed to move it around between hosts. So you would not need to purchase licenses for all three hosts.
This isn't true. SA provides upgrade benefits for the server OS, but for sub 90 day license mobility (vMotion/DRS) you have to license all hosts in the cluster to the peak consumption they will use.
What SA on server gets you is SPLA/Azure hybrid use so you could move the VM to public cloud.
SA for SQL/Exchange gives you license mobility.
Yeah, my understanding is that Microsoft limits the move of a Windows VM (of an Enterprise license, not a Datacenter license) to one time per 90 days. So, if you wanted to do maintenance and migrate the VM to another host, you would have to leave it on that host for at least 90 days to be in compliance.
They've not offered Enterprise in many years. DC has the same "every 90 days" limits.
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@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
This is different for Oracle because their sales teams misrepresent the licensing and commit fraud.
Identical for MS. Only it's MS support, rather than sales, that is the one doing it.
If Oracle sales does it, it's not fraud, it's the sale and they are legally bound by it. It would be fraud if Oracle tried to breach the sale later.
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@scottalanmiller said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@wrx7m said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@jaredbusch said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@scottalanmiller said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
You get lots of silly extra like training and "support", but it's all minor. Sometimes certain features like maybe VDI are included with SA only, in those cases it can be a bigger deal.
There are vMotion implications on SA for the non-OS bits sometimes (SQL/Exchange, you need it to move a host, otherwise you will need to high water mark license all the hosts).
I have no idea what this means, especially the "high water mark license" part.
If you do not have SA, then when you move a virtual instance of Exchange, Skype for Business, SharePoint, or SQL from one physical host to another, the receiving host must already have a license to cover the virtual instance. The license does not travel with the virtual machine.
If you have SA the license can move between hosts (Note this is NOT true for Windows Server licensing, just SQL/Exchange etc).
What I mean for High water mark is The number of OSE's licensed for a server needs to be licensed for the maximum number of servers that run there in all vMotion scenario's (Unless you license a host for Datacenter Edition).
Wait, so if I have a VM running Exchange or SQL, I need to have SA in addition to having licensed the cores of each host server? Sorry, I've only just now learned about SA so I'm still wrapping my head around it.
If you have SA on your Server 2016 license, you are allowed to move it around between hosts. So you would not need to purchase licenses for all three hosts.
This isn't true. SA provides upgrade benefits for the server OS, but for sub 90 day license mobility (vMotion/DRS) you have to license all hosts in the cluster to the peak consumption they will use.
What SA on server gets you is SPLA/Azure hybrid use so you could move the VM to public cloud.
SA for SQL/Exchange gives you license mobility.
Yeah, my understanding is that Microsoft limits the move of a Windows VM (of an Enterprise license, not a Datacenter license) to one time per 90 days. So, if you wanted to do maintenance and migrate the VM to another host, you would have to leave it on that host for at least 90 days to be in compliance.
They've not offered Enterprise in many years. DC has the same "every 90 days" limits.
Correct. I did mean to say standard. But I thought DC overcame the 90 day limit.
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@wrx7m said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@scottalanmiller said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@wrx7m said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@jaredbusch said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@scottalanmiller said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
You get lots of silly extra like training and "support", but it's all minor. Sometimes certain features like maybe VDI are included with SA only, in those cases it can be a bigger deal.
There are vMotion implications on SA for the non-OS bits sometimes (SQL/Exchange, you need it to move a host, otherwise you will need to high water mark license all the hosts).
I have no idea what this means, especially the "high water mark license" part.
If you do not have SA, then when you move a virtual instance of Exchange, Skype for Business, SharePoint, or SQL from one physical host to another, the receiving host must already have a license to cover the virtual instance. The license does not travel with the virtual machine.
If you have SA the license can move between hosts (Note this is NOT true for Windows Server licensing, just SQL/Exchange etc).
What I mean for High water mark is The number of OSE's licensed for a server needs to be licensed for the maximum number of servers that run there in all vMotion scenario's (Unless you license a host for Datacenter Edition).
Wait, so if I have a VM running Exchange or SQL, I need to have SA in addition to having licensed the cores of each host server? Sorry, I've only just now learned about SA so I'm still wrapping my head around it.
If you have SA on your Server 2016 license, you are allowed to move it around between hosts. So you would not need to purchase licenses for all three hosts.
This isn't true. SA provides upgrade benefits for the server OS, but for sub 90 day license mobility (vMotion/DRS) you have to license all hosts in the cluster to the peak consumption they will use.
What SA on server gets you is SPLA/Azure hybrid use so you could move the VM to public cloud.
SA for SQL/Exchange gives you license mobility.
Yeah, my understanding is that Microsoft limits the move of a Windows VM (of an Enterprise license, not a Datacenter license) to one time per 90 days. So, if you wanted to do maintenance and migrate the VM to another host, you would have to leave it on that host for at least 90 days to be in compliance.
They've not offered Enterprise in many years. DC has the same "every 90 days" limits.
Correct. I did mean to say standard. But I thought DC overcame the 90 day limit.
No, people often say this because they assume one DC already purchased for every server. But if you have one server and one DC license, you can't move it any more than anything else. So in very large environments, DC on every server even empty ones can "fix" this issue, but only by overspending
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Kind of like how you can overcome the cost of getting a 1/2lbs burger when you are really hungry by buying two 1/3lbs burgers. LOL
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@scottalanmiller said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
Kind of like how you can overcome the cost of getting a 1/2lbs burger when you are really hungry by buying two 1/3lbs burgers. LOL
LOL. Good analogy. So people that are moving Windows VMs around, have to have additional/double licenses to accommodate that?
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@wrx7m said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@scottalanmiller said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
Kind of like how you can overcome the cost of getting a 1/2lbs burger when you are really hungry by buying two 1/3lbs burgers. LOL
LOL. Good analogy. So people that are moving Windows VMs around, have to have additional/double licenses to accommodate that?
If they are doing it correctly without SA, yes. In the enterprise space, everyone does this, they just provide a list of servers to Microsoft and cut an EA agreement for the whole thing. So essentially DC on every host. SMEs often do this directly by actually getting DC for every host. Once you are at any size, it's just so easy to do.
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@scottalanmiller said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@wrx7m said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@scottalanmiller said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
Kind of like how you can overcome the cost of getting a 1/2lbs burger when you are really hungry by buying two 1/3lbs burgers. LOL
LOL. Good analogy. So people that are moving Windows VMs around, have to have additional/double licenses to accommodate that?
If they are doing it correctly without SA, yes. In the enterprise space, everyone does this, they just provide a list of servers to Microsoft and cut an EA agreement for the whole thing. So essentially DC on every host. SMEs often do this directly by actually getting DC for every host. Once you are at any size, it's just so easy to do.
So with SA, what changes in this scenario?
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@wrx7m said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
So with SA, what changes in this scenario?
Not a lot, but you can move workloads every 90 days. Which is plenty for a lot of companies.
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For companies that don't want downtime during hardware patching that shuffle workloads to accommodate , you need full mobility. For ones like mine that just want to protect against hardware failure and can happily run from a different node for 90 days, it's all the same.
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In my environment, I migrate all VMs that I need to stay up onto one server, and power down the other VMs. Then I update the host. Next, I migrate the VMs I hadn't migrated (and need to stay up) to the other server and update that host. Then they stay there until the next update session.
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@wrx7m said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
In my environment, I migrate all VMs that I need to stay up onto one server, and power down the other VMs. Then I update the host. Next, I migrate the VMs I hadn't migrated (and need to stay up) to the other server and update that host. Then they stay there until the next update session.
If you do that once a season, you'd be okay with SA. If you do it more than every 90 days, you'd need to over-provision licensing.
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@scottalanmiller said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@wrx7m said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
So with SA, what changes in this scenario?
Not a lot, but you can move workloads every 90 days. Which is plenty for a lot of companies.
You get free upgrades to the new version. I learned this the hard way buying Windows 2008 100 days before 2008R2 came out. Couldn't upgrade without re-buying stuff.
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@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@scottalanmiller said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@wrx7m said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
So with SA, what changes in this scenario?
Not a lot, but you can move workloads every 90 days. Which is plenty for a lot of companies.
You get free upgrades to the new version. I learned this the hard way buying Windows 2008 100 days before 2008R2 came out. Couldn't upgrade without re-buying stuff.
Oh yes, that's the big thing, but within the context of moving things around, you don't get much. I'm a big believer in SA just being a cost of Windows. If you run Windows Server you need SA and/or you need to pay out of pocket for each upgrade. It's part of the base cost of maintaining a Windows infrastructure.
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@scottalanmiller said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@wrx7m said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
In my environment, I migrate all VMs that I need to stay up onto one server, and power down the other VMs. Then I update the host. Next, I migrate the VMs I hadn't migrated (and need to stay up) to the other server and update that host. Then they stay there until the next update session.
If you do that once a season, you'd be okay with SA. If you do it more than every 90 days, you'd need to over-provision licensing.
The problem is he patches both hosts in less than 90 days. That wouldn't work. He would need Datacenter, or to license both hosts for the full amount of VM's.
Considering he might be patching the host for something dangerous (like say driver version 7.700.50 that eats data) this could be a bigger concern.
One thing that does make patching a lot faster for ESXi now is it can skip the entire BIOS/initialization/Loading ESXi files.
Youtube VideoVMware update manager also can patch in a single reboot (used to use 2). These things together make patching a bit less aggressive.
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@scottalanmiller said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
Oh yes, that's the big thing, but within the context of moving things around, you don't get much. I'm a big believer in SA just being a cost of Windows. If you run Windows Server you need SA and/or you need to pay out of pocket for each upgrade. It's part of the base cost of maintaining a Windows infrastructure.
Also if you have 300 users and use Windows at any scale, you need an EA.
A big benefit to EA/ELA's with vendors is it just simplifies the procurement discussion to a single agreement that should last you 3 years. This makes it easy for your staff to just deploy stuff rather than go through bid/procurement everytime they need to deploy something.
