Do we dislike Ubuntu
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@bbigford said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@scottalanmiller said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@bbigford said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@scottalanmiller said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@bbigford said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@scottalanmiller said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@bbigford said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@scottalanmiller said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@bbigford said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
No thanks on Ubuntu. I prefer Fedora for workstations and CentOS/RHEL for servers. I haven't tried Fedora on servers but have needed more stability and less bleeding edge features. Curious to start trying it out as a server instance in a lab though.
Fedora is not bleeding edge, that's not the right way to think of it. It's just current, if anything, I'd say that it is probably the more stable of the two. CentOS is "old", not "stable". The two are not the same thing. CentOS is for specific cases where you need to maintain unchanging libraries - not something you ideally want. We specifically want Fedora for better stability over CentOS.
I chose the wrong verbiage, having read back through what I wrote. I meant bleeding edge as in latest features and consistently up to date. Where things couldn't change due to requirements where things might break, I've used CentOS. Not necessarily that it is more stable, just that things wouldn't break as easily for that reason.
I think that it makes "meaningful" breaks way more likely. CentOS does basically all the same changes as Fedora, just saves them up to make it far more painful when you have to deal with many at once. It's not like Fedora makes "more" changes, it just makes them in smaller amounts more often which protects you in many ways.
I can understand that. Having small things break, or rather maybe smaller things often rather than big breaks rarely, comes down to preference. Would I rather deal with small "noise" or a late night here and there with big stuff? If the small stuff does not effect end users to a point it is unnoticeable, but the big stuff takes down a service, those are big differences.
It's not about just breaking things, that shouldn't happen in either case. In both cases you deal with that through testing. What we are talking about between the two is whether your developers fix things "as they go" or if they save things up for years and then have to do major fixes to fix not only not keeping up as they went, but years of accumulated technical debt that could have been avoided.
I should say I haven't had any stability issues beyond some odd graphical program issues with Fedora, ever. So stability isn't really the right word for me to use there. I wish the major releases were a little longer. Certainly not as long as CentOS because those releases are far too long in my opinion, but around 1 year is just a little quick for some healthcare environments. 1 environment I managed had around 70 or so CentOS 6/7 VMs. I don't want to upgrade those every year. Every other year or every 3 years would be okay. At the same time, I'm not going to run a version or 2 behind.
Why do you want any length over the "absolute minimum", though? What's the benefit to any length at all? There is a minimum time needed for testing and support, I'm not saying to shorted that. But even Fedora holds updates after that point for up to six months to hit their "cycle". I don't want even that, every day that those updates aren't released is a day that we might be making technical debt for no reason. I understand why they do it in six month releases, they want enough time to get the whole system into a state where people can target it for package announcements. And I'm okay with that. But why would you want it longer, rather than shorter?
Shorter for major releases? More maintenence for major patching. Having a slightly longer time between major releases frees me up to focus on things other than testing/implementing upgrades.
Fedora reduces patching and major release overhead. Longer time takes more effort, not less. All of the reasons you list are reasons I'd want to avoid CentOS. Specifically because time is valuable and losing tons of time to major broken stuff is what I need to avoid.
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Using LTS releases....
@black3dynamite said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@bbigford said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@scottalanmiller said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@bbigford said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
No thanks on Ubuntu. I prefer Fedora for workstations and CentOS/RHEL for servers. I haven't tried Fedora on servers but have needed more stability and less bleeding edge features. Curious to start trying it out as a server instance in a lab though.
Fedora is not bleeding edge, that's not the right way to think of it. It's just current, if anything, I'd say that it is probably the more stable of the two. CentOS is "old", not "stable". The two are not the same thing. CentOS is for specific cases where you need to maintain unchanging libraries - not something you ideally want. We specifically want Fedora for better stability over CentOS.
I chose the wrong verbiage, having read back through what I wrote. I meant bleeding edge as in latest features and consistently up to date. Where things couldn't change due to requirements where things might break, I've used CentOS. Not necessarily that it is more stable, just that things wouldn't break as easily for that reason.
Wouldn't it be easier, in the long run, to support the latest stable features and packages instead?
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@black3dynamite said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@matteo-nunziati said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
I'm quite opposite: when developping stuff I really like to reduce the amount of maintanance of the OS. Of course too old is something I don't like, therefore I find a good balance by using ubuntu LTS and recently I've done a short test on opensuse leap too.
Yes you have no support but I don't search for it. what you have to do is installing security fixes, and I trust both ubuntu e opensuse enough to set automatic updates for fixes only. On the other hand I got stable API and ABI to develop against.
Nice to me.
I would also like debian but they have a quite short release cycle. To me ubuntu is a sort of LTS over a debian base (ubuntu is something like 75% debian - and when I install ubuntu minimal I got something like 100% debian - on the source everything is recompiled).
Debian LTS
https://wiki.debian.org/LTSI'm aware of it, but currently it is a best effort solution not a proper one.
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@scottalanmiller said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@bbigford said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@scottalanmiller said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@bbigford said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@scottalanmiller said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@bbigford said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@scottalanmiller said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@bbigford said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
No thanks on Ubuntu. I prefer Fedora for workstations and CentOS/RHEL for servers. I haven't tried Fedora on servers but have needed more stability and less bleeding edge features. Curious to start trying it out as a server instance in a lab though.
Fedora is not bleeding edge, that's not the right way to think of it. It's just current, if anything, I'd say that it is probably the more stable of the two. CentOS is "old", not "stable". The two are not the same thing. CentOS is for specific cases where you need to maintain unchanging libraries - not something you ideally want. We specifically want Fedora for better stability over CentOS.
I chose the wrong verbiage, having read back through what I wrote. I meant bleeding edge as in latest features and consistently up to date. Where things couldn't change due to requirements where things might break, I've used CentOS. Not necessarily that it is more stable, just that things wouldn't break as easily for that reason.
I think that it makes "meaningful" breaks way more likely. CentOS does basically all the same changes as Fedora, just saves them up to make it far more painful when you have to deal with many at once. It's not like Fedora makes "more" changes, it just makes them in smaller amounts more often which protects you in many ways.
I can understand that. Having small things break, or rather maybe smaller things often rather than big breaks rarely, comes down to preference. Would I rather deal with small "noise" or a late night here and there with big stuff? If the small stuff does not effect end users to a point it is unnoticeable, but the big stuff takes down a service, those are big differences.
It's not about just breaking things, that shouldn't happen in either case. In both cases you deal with that through testing. What we are talking about between the two is whether your developers fix things "as they go" or if they save things up for years and then have to do major fixes to fix not only not keeping up as they went, but years of accumulated technical debt that could have been avoided.
I should say I haven't had any stability issues beyond some odd graphical program issues with Fedora, ever. So stability isn't really the right word for me to use there. I wish the major releases were a little longer. Certainly not as long as CentOS because those releases are far too long in my opinion, but around 1 year is just a little quick for some healthcare environments. 1 environment I managed had around 70 or so CentOS 6/7 VMs. I don't want to upgrade those every year. Every other year or every 3 years would be okay. At the same time, I'm not going to run a version or 2 behind.
Why do you want any length over the "absolute minimum", though? What's the benefit to any length at all? There is a minimum time needed for testing and support, I'm not saying to shorted that. But even Fedora holds updates after that point for up to six months to hit their "cycle". I don't want even that, every day that those updates aren't released is a day that we might be making technical debt for no reason. I understand why they do it in six month releases, they want enough time to get the whole system into a state where people can target it for package announcements. And I'm okay with that. But why would you want it longer, rather than shorter?
I use bleeding edge: pip install in venv is the way I code for the most (when I can use python). the remain of the system is of no use to me. if upstream changes the abi/api or the interpreter or the gcc (this is especially true with c++ whose iso/ansi is a moving target) I've to re-check all from scretch.
Instead I can take time to develop and switch basic palatform with enough time to test. Last time opencv libraries had to be recompiled due to c++ STD library changes.
For a one man show in R&D 6 month are nothing: you are in the middle of devel and platform is changed again . GOSH!
just to say: R&D project of a customer which is a win shop it started with xp, now it is win 10... 6 months are nothing!
it is ok if you are a team... not for one person imho. -
@matteo-nunziati said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@scottalanmiller said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@bbigford said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@scottalanmiller said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@bbigford said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@scottalanmiller said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@bbigford said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@scottalanmiller said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@bbigford said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
No thanks on Ubuntu. I prefer Fedora for workstations and CentOS/RHEL for servers. I haven't tried Fedora on servers but have needed more stability and less bleeding edge features. Curious to start trying it out as a server instance in a lab though.
Fedora is not bleeding edge, that's not the right way to think of it. It's just current, if anything, I'd say that it is probably the more stable of the two. CentOS is "old", not "stable". The two are not the same thing. CentOS is for specific cases where you need to maintain unchanging libraries - not something you ideally want. We specifically want Fedora for better stability over CentOS.
I chose the wrong verbiage, having read back through what I wrote. I meant bleeding edge as in latest features and consistently up to date. Where things couldn't change due to requirements where things might break, I've used CentOS. Not necessarily that it is more stable, just that things wouldn't break as easily for that reason.
I think that it makes "meaningful" breaks way more likely. CentOS does basically all the same changes as Fedora, just saves them up to make it far more painful when you have to deal with many at once. It's not like Fedora makes "more" changes, it just makes them in smaller amounts more often which protects you in many ways.
I can understand that. Having small things break, or rather maybe smaller things often rather than big breaks rarely, comes down to preference. Would I rather deal with small "noise" or a late night here and there with big stuff? If the small stuff does not effect end users to a point it is unnoticeable, but the big stuff takes down a service, those are big differences.
It's not about just breaking things, that shouldn't happen in either case. In both cases you deal with that through testing. What we are talking about between the two is whether your developers fix things "as they go" or if they save things up for years and then have to do major fixes to fix not only not keeping up as they went, but years of accumulated technical debt that could have been avoided.
I should say I haven't had any stability issues beyond some odd graphical program issues with Fedora, ever. So stability isn't really the right word for me to use there. I wish the major releases were a little longer. Certainly not as long as CentOS because those releases are far too long in my opinion, but around 1 year is just a little quick for some healthcare environments. 1 environment I managed had around 70 or so CentOS 6/7 VMs. I don't want to upgrade those every year. Every other year or every 3 years would be okay. At the same time, I'm not going to run a version or 2 behind.
Why do you want any length over the "absolute minimum", though? What's the benefit to any length at all? There is a minimum time needed for testing and support, I'm not saying to shorted that. But even Fedora holds updates after that point for up to six months to hit their "cycle". I don't want even that, every day that those updates aren't released is a day that we might be making technical debt for no reason. I understand why they do it in six month releases, they want enough time to get the whole system into a state where people can target it for package announcements. And I'm okay with that. But why would you want it longer, rather than shorter?
I use bleeding edge: pip install in venv is the way I code for the most (when I can use python). the remain of the system is of no use to me. if upstream changes the abi/api or the interpreter or the gcc (this is especially true with c++ whose iso/ansi is a moving target) I've to re-check all from scretch.
Instead I can take time to develop and switch basic palatform with enough time to test. Last time opencv libraries had to be recompiled due to c++ STD library changes.
For a one man show in R&D 6 month are nothing: you are in the middle of devel and platform is changed again . GOSH!
just to say: R&D project of a customer which is a win shop it started with xp, now it is win 10... 6 months are nothing!
it is ok if you are a team... not for one person imho.Being one person can make it easier... more agile, move faster, easier to keep "everyone" focused on modern techniques and avoid hidden debt.
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@matteo-nunziati said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@black3dynamite said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@matteo-nunziati said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
I'm quite opposite: when developping stuff I really like to reduce the amount of maintanance of the OS. Of course too old is something I don't like, therefore I find a good balance by using ubuntu LTS and recently I've done a short test on opensuse leap too.
Yes you have no support but I don't search for it. what you have to do is installing security fixes, and I trust both ubuntu e opensuse enough to set automatic updates for fixes only. On the other hand I got stable API and ABI to develop against.
Nice to me.
I would also like debian but they have a quite short release cycle. To me ubuntu is a sort of LTS over a debian base (ubuntu is something like 75% debian - and when I install ubuntu minimal I got something like 100% debian - on the source everything is recompiled).
Debian LTS
https://wiki.debian.org/LTSI'm aware of it, but currently it is a best effort solution not a proper one.
I just noticed that it is not handled by the Debian security team.
Debian LTS will not be handled by the Debian security team, but by a separate group of volunteers and companies interested in making it a success.
Thus the Debian LTS team takes over security maintenance of the various releases once the Debian Security team stops its work. -
@black3dynamite said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@matteo-nunziati said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@black3dynamite said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@matteo-nunziati said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
I'm quite opposite: when developping stuff I really like to reduce the amount of maintanance of the OS. Of course too old is something I don't like, therefore I find a good balance by using ubuntu LTS and recently I've done a short test on opensuse leap too.
Yes you have no support but I don't search for it. what you have to do is installing security fixes, and I trust both ubuntu e opensuse enough to set automatic updates for fixes only. On the other hand I got stable API and ABI to develop against.
Nice to me.
I would also like debian but they have a quite short release cycle. To me ubuntu is a sort of LTS over a debian base (ubuntu is something like 75% debian - and when I install ubuntu minimal I got something like 100% debian - on the source everything is recompiled).
Debian LTS
https://wiki.debian.org/LTSI'm aware of it, but currently it is a best effort solution not a proper one.
I just noticed that it is not handled by the Debian security team.
Debian LTS will not be handled by the Debian security team, but by a separate group of volunteers and companies interested in making it a success.
Thus the Debian LTS team takes over security maintenance of the various releases once the Debian Security team stops its work.Yeah I think I'll stick with Fedora based distros. I don't feel like dealing with the Wild Wild West crap. Windows is bad enough.
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@black3dynamite said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@matteo-nunziati said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@black3dynamite said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@matteo-nunziati said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
I'm quite opposite: when developping stuff I really like to reduce the amount of maintanance of the OS. Of course too old is something I don't like, therefore I find a good balance by using ubuntu LTS and recently I've done a short test on opensuse leap too.
Yes you have no support but I don't search for it. what you have to do is installing security fixes, and I trust both ubuntu e opensuse enough to set automatic updates for fixes only. On the other hand I got stable API and ABI to develop against.
Nice to me.
I would also like debian but they have a quite short release cycle. To me ubuntu is a sort of LTS over a debian base (ubuntu is something like 75% debian - and when I install ubuntu minimal I got something like 100% debian - on the source everything is recompiled).
Debian LTS
https://wiki.debian.org/LTSI'm aware of it, but currently it is a best effort solution not a proper one.
I just noticed that it is not handled by the Debian security team.
Debian LTS will not be handled by the Debian security team, but by a separate group of volunteers and companies interested in making it a success.
Thus the Debian LTS team takes over security maintenance of the various releases once the Debian Security team stops its work.Hmmm.... I think that Debian works best as a base for things, but rarely used on its own.
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I could take it or leave it. I think they have some cool projects like Juju. The only problem I’ve had with it really is the boot partition filling up with images. I’m so used to how RHEL deals with that I forget about it.
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@stacksofplates said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
I could take it or leave it. I think they have some cool projects like Juju. The only problem I’ve had with it really is the boot partition filling up with images. I’m so used to how RHEL deals with that I forget about it.
OMG that is such a pain!!
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@scottalanmiller said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@stacksofplates said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
I could take it or leave it. I think they have some cool projects like Juju. The only problem I’ve had with it really is the boot partition filling up with images. I’m so used to how RHEL deals with that I forget about it.
OMG that is such a pain!!
Such a silly one as well, for something that's been automated by so many others.
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@travisdh1 said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@scottalanmiller said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@stacksofplates said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
I could take it or leave it. I think they have some cool projects like Juju. The only problem I’ve had with it really is the boot partition filling up with images. I’m so used to how RHEL deals with that I forget about it.
OMG that is such a pain!!
Such a silly one as well, for something that's been automated by so many others.
Indeed, it is ridiculous.
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@scottalanmiller said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@stacksofplates said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
I could take it or leave it. I think they have some cool projects like Juju. The only problem I’ve had with it really is the boot partition filling up with images. I’m so used to how RHEL deals with that I forget about it.
OMG that is such a pain!!
I agree
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Tl;dr
As a casual, sometimes user of Linux, I started with Ubuntu and have had several flavours of it and I like it... HOWEVER, I don’t like the bundled Amazon stuff and I really didn’t like unity.My favourite bit was the Steam support.
Now that I’m sort of looking into some test bunny stuff at home, I’m considering an entirely different flavour of Linux.
I liked the CentOS install I had on my short lived VPS, so I’ll probably try fedora.
I don’t dislike Ubuntu, I just don’t agree with some of their decisions.
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@nadnerb said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
Tl;dr
As a casual, sometimes user of Linux, I started with Ubuntu and have had several flavours of it and I like it... HOWEVER, I don’t like the bundled Amazon stuff and I really didn’t like unity.My favourite bit was the Steam support.
Now that I’m sort of looking into some test bunny stuff at home, I’m considering an entirely different flavour of Linux.
I liked the CentOS install I had on my short lived VPS, so I’ll probably try fedora.
I don’t dislike Ubuntu, I just don’t agree with some of their decisions.
Deepin integrates Steam even better than Ubuntu does.
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@scottalanmiller said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@nadnerb said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
Tl;dr
As a casual, sometimes user of Linux, I started with Ubuntu and have had several flavours of it and I like it... HOWEVER, I don’t like the bundled Amazon stuff and I really didn’t like unity.My favourite bit was the Steam support.
Now that I’m sort of looking into some test bunny stuff at home, I’m considering an entirely different flavour of Linux.
I liked the CentOS install I had on my short lived VPS, so I’ll probably try fedora.
I don’t dislike Ubuntu, I just don’t agree with some of their decisions.
Deepin integrates Steam even better than Ubuntu does.
Good stuff. That's Definately something I'll have a look at then.
I'm not yet cemented into a distro. I think I'd like to remain distro agnostic. -
@nadnerb said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@scottalanmiller said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@nadnerb said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
Tl;dr
As a casual, sometimes user of Linux, I started with Ubuntu and have had several flavours of it and I like it... HOWEVER, I don’t like the bundled Amazon stuff and I really didn’t like unity.My favourite bit was the Steam support.
Now that I’m sort of looking into some test bunny stuff at home, I’m considering an entirely different flavour of Linux.
I liked the CentOS install I had on my short lived VPS, so I’ll probably try fedora.
I don’t dislike Ubuntu, I just don’t agree with some of their decisions.
Deepin integrates Steam even better than Ubuntu does.
Good stuff. That's Definately something I'll have a look at then.
I'm not yet cemented into a distro. I think I'd like to remain distro agnostic.There is no real distro agnostic, that's like being OS agnostic. At some point, you have to use one
I used Fedora and Deepin as my daily drivers. And the wife uses Ubuntu.
I keep Mint, Solus, Elementary, Zorin, Debian, and CentOS in the lab.
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@nadnerb ElementaryOS is nice but you might not like the idea of not able to save items to your Desktop. Deepin is pretty good too.
On my home Desktop, Fedora Gnome is my preferred, then again, I've always be a fan of using distros that uses Gnome. But I do have Deepin, Elementary and Linux Mint has a VM because I like to keep up with what's going on with them.
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@black3dynamite said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:
@nadnerb ElementaryOS is nice but you might not like the idea of not able to save items to your Desktop. Deepin is pretty good too.
Just not on by default. You can enable it...
