Just How Hard is University to Overcome
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@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@momurda I'm all for college as a means of education. That's kind of the original intent. However modern colleges are "career" oriented. Find someone today that thinks liberal arts and sciences are important in a collegiate education. They are rare, colleges today are almost always about the "job" at the end of the degree and not the education you get... getting there.
Even those liberal pieces, you can teach all of that to yourself. Certainly colleges are way better at that stuff than career stuff since the entire collegiate experience is built around teaching those parts. In theory the one value of college is putting a bunch of other learners at the same level together in a classroom to encourage discussion. Unfortunately, this is only of value to the middle of the road students. Those that are not very good fail to participate. Those that are above average end up being nothing more than unpaid professors doing lecturing without getting the peer discussions.
The problem there is that as the college system starts to become a substitute high school accepting students younger and younger (they take college freshman regularly at 15 in Texas now), and do high school classes in college (students can basically go right from freshman year of HS directly to college without taking HS classes so they are in college without any HS level background) and encourage larger and larger percentages of the population to attend college (so instead of the elite being the only ones there, now all the random kids who were problems in HS are still there) the middle of the road student is now no longer of much value to discuss ideas with making the whole situation worse and worse.
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@scottalanmiller
No idea what substitute high school means. Unless colleges have dramatically lowered their requirements in the last 20 years and are teaching HS level courses since i was enrolled.
The value I am talking about is not money. The thinking that all must be measured with dollars and anything that doesnt lead directly to more dollars or you saving dollars is worthless--is wrong.
Thinking like that can(did) lead an entire generation astray into condoning the behavior of and empowering people like Donald Trump/Carl Icahn(two easy examples) instead of ostracizing or imprisoning them. -
@momurda said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@scottalanmiller
No idea what substitute high school means. Unless colleges have dramatically lowered their requirements in the last 20 years and are teaching HS level courses since i was enrolled.That's exactly what they have done. You can now, at least in Texas, opt for college instead of high school. You no longer have to complete the high school workloads before going on to college. So you literally have classes with kids who haven't done high school yet and are high school age taken college classes.
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@momurda said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
The value I am talking about is not money. The thinking that all must be measured with dollars and anything that doesnt lead directly to more dollars or you saving dollars is worthless--is wrong.
That's fine. But what is the value? There are two generally accepted values that universities should provide: either education for education's sake; or education for the economy's sake. My point above about education is that university stands in the way of education rather then enabling it. Centuries ago, universities were bastions of secret knowledge kept carefully out of the public's hands so that universities could sell it. Today, universities have no such secret store of knowledge and have nothing to offer normal learners. Someone seeking education can get the same resources on their own, faster, cheaper, and with more quality than they can get through the education system.
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Student loan watchdog: US 'turned its back' on students - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45323773
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Saw this on a job requirement today.
Education Requirement(s): Bachelor’s Degree with 6+ years OR Master’s Degree with 4+ years OR 8+ years applicable business experienceSo if you assume that you started trying to work in the industry as soon as you graduated from high school and that you graduated at 18 (doesn't actually matter the age, the difference is the same)...
Bachelor degree would require you to be 18 + 6 + 4 (minimum reasonable for a BS degree) = 28
Master's degree would require you to be 18 + 4 + 6 (minimum reasonable for an MS degree) = 28
High School only would require you to be 18 + 8 = 26So a two year penalty if you managed to do college at the assumed speed. If you took a more average amount of time to get through school, then the college path hurts even more.
So even if the HS only grad wasn't paid at all for eight years and only did volunteer work, they'd still potential have a two year leap on the college grads, even if their college was free. But assuming that the one was paid to work those years, and the others paid for schooling, the gap becomes enormous.
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@scottalanmiller
That was a pretty good video till the end. A nice walk through Sallie history. -
@pmoncho said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@scottalanmiller
That was a pretty good video till the end. A nice walk through Sallie history.Yeah, I really liked that one, and good history that really no one is aware of.
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@scottalanmiller said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@pmoncho said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@scottalanmiller
That was a pretty good video till the end. A nice walk through Sallie history.Yeah, I really liked that one, and good history that really no one is aware of.
I only knew about half of what he mentioned. Nixon, like other past presidential ideas, didn't pay attention to the law of unintended consequences. Maybe they do and just don't care.
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@pmoncho said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@scottalanmiller said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@pmoncho said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@scottalanmiller
That was a pretty good video till the end. A nice walk through Sallie history.Yeah, I really liked that one, and good history that really no one is aware of.
I only knew about half of what he mentioned. Nixon, like other past presidential ideas, didn't pay attention to the law of unintended consequences. Maybe they do and just don't care.
Other past? I can't think of any president, current one included that hasn't done something boneheaded.
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@pmoncho said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@scottalanmiller said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@pmoncho said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@scottalanmiller
That was a pretty good video till the end. A nice walk through Sallie history.Yeah, I really liked that one, and good history that really no one is aware of.
I only knew about half of what he mentioned. Nixon, like other past presidential ideas, didn't pay attention to the law of unintended consequences. Maybe they do and just don't care.
Well it was Clinton that caused the problem there. Nixon's Sallie-Mae creation was good. It was Clinton dissolving it that was the problem.
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@scottalanmiller said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
While there is truth there - it's not a fair comparison.. It's likely they spent $100K over 4+ years. So to balance that - you should compare 4 years of salary...
But yeah - it's pretty bad!
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@Dashrender said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
While there is truth there - it's not a fair comparison.. It's likely they spent $100K over 4+ years. So to balance that - you should compare 4 years of salary...
But yeah - it's pretty bad!
Sort of, but how much you spend as a total is important, that it is over 4+ years makes it worse, not better. Showing it as a total makes it sound far better than it really is.
Because as worded, it sounds like it is purely "Buy a $40K job." But in reality, it's "do an unpaid job for 4+ years AND pay $100K while doing that" which is dramatically worse than just spending $100K.
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@scottalanmiller said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
Some people believe the Earth is flat and that Aliens are probing human butts, and they've gone to school!
