Sunk Cost Fallacy?
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@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@Dashrender said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@JaredBusch said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
Just doing really quick numbers, if you went with standard Sangoma SIP phones (the ones made by the FreePBX people) at default Amazon pricing (no bulk discounts or special rates) that would be under $8,800 to replace all 117 phones. Any old phone that still works will save money, any softphone that can be used will save money.
What's generating the $11,000 of unknown costs for option 4?
That's not a great phone
Bare bones for sure, but it works. Have you seen issues with it?
If it's a shit phone, the docs won't accept it. Like banks, a minimal professional appearance is required.
Hell, the fact that the handsets have such a low profile and really hurt your neck when holding the phone to your head with your shoulder practically kills them.
How did you get from bare bones to shit phone that doesn't look professional? What does "looks professional" mean to them, anyway? They want it to look like a receptionist's phone?
Phones with a super low button count look like joke phones to most people in a business environment. Sure, not a practical thing, but a person thing. And for a one time cost, probably worthwhile from a moral perspective.
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@Dashrender said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@Dashrender said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@JaredBusch said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
Just doing really quick numbers, if you went with standard Sangoma SIP phones (the ones made by the FreePBX people) at default Amazon pricing (no bulk discounts or special rates) that would be under $8,800 to replace all 117 phones. Any old phone that still works will save money, any softphone that can be used will save money.
What's generating the $11,000 of unknown costs for option 4?
That's not a great phone
Bare bones for sure, but it works. Have you seen issues with it?
If it's a shit phone, the docs won't accept it. Like banks, a minimal professional appearance is required.
Hell, the fact that the handsets have such a low profile and really hurt your neck when holding the phone to your head with your shoulder practically kills them.
How did you get from bare bones to shit phone that doesn't look professional? What does "looks professional" mean to them, anyway? They want it to look like a receptionist's phone?
Phones with a super low button count look like joke phones to most people in a business environment. Sure, not a practical thing, but a person thing. And for a one time cost, probably worthwhile from a moral perspective.
So I was right, they want to look like they are secretaries. Professionals have low button counts, secretaries who manage calls have many. But then again, what doc is really as professional as a secretary.
What you want is called a "receptionist phone" then, not a professional one.
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@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@Dashrender said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
but could also present a new problem the docs don't want - which is people calling them when they are with other patients, etc.
But the docs control that, so a non-issue.
Control it how? by killing the app on the phone? Well then the staff will just stop using it and call their cell phone direct.
This is a tangent we don't need to go down. -
@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@Dashrender said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@Dashrender said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@JaredBusch said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
Just doing really quick numbers, if you went with standard Sangoma SIP phones (the ones made by the FreePBX people) at default Amazon pricing (no bulk discounts or special rates) that would be under $8,800 to replace all 117 phones. Any old phone that still works will save money, any softphone that can be used will save money.
What's generating the $11,000 of unknown costs for option 4?
That's not a great phone
Bare bones for sure, but it works. Have you seen issues with it?
If it's a shit phone, the docs won't accept it. Like banks, a minimal professional appearance is required.
Hell, the fact that the handsets have such a low profile and really hurt your neck when holding the phone to your head with your shoulder practically kills them.
How did you get from bare bones to shit phone that doesn't look professional? What does "looks professional" mean to them, anyway? They want it to look like a receptionist's phone?
Phones with a super low button count look like joke phones to most people in a business environment. Sure, not a practical thing, but a person thing. And for a one time cost, probably worthwhile from a moral perspective.
So I was right, they want to look like they are secretaries. Professionals have low button counts, secretaries who manage calls have many. But then again, what doc is really as professional as a secretary.
What you want is called a "receptionist phone" then, not a professional one.
Phones need to have a dedicated button for
DND
call forwarding
voice mail
transfer
on hold
3 calling lines
intercom
conferencing
muteI suppose if the phone fell to just those we could probably get buy.
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@Dashrender said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@Dashrender said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@JaredBusch said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
Just doing really quick numbers, if you went with standard Sangoma SIP phones (the ones made by the FreePBX people) at default Amazon pricing (no bulk discounts or special rates) that would be under $8,800 to replace all 117 phones. Any old phone that still works will save money, any softphone that can be used will save money.
What's generating the $11,000 of unknown costs for option 4?
That's not a great phone
Bare bones for sure, but it works. Have you seen issues with it?
If it's a shit phone, the docs won't accept it. Like banks, a minimal professional appearance is required.
Hell, the fact that the handsets have such a low profile and really hurt your neck when holding the phone to your head with your shoulder practically kills them.
How did you get from bare bones to shit phone that doesn't look professional? What does "looks professional" mean to them, anyway? They want it to look like a receptionist's phone?
Phones with a super low button count look like joke phones to most people in a business environment. Sure, not a practical thing, but a person thing. And for a one time cost, probably worthwhile from a moral perspective.
FFS. Are these the phones that are going to be hanging in the clinic and treatment rooms or doctor's offices? Both?
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@coliver said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@Dashrender said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@Dashrender said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@JaredBusch said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
Just doing really quick numbers, if you went with standard Sangoma SIP phones (the ones made by the FreePBX people) at default Amazon pricing (no bulk discounts or special rates) that would be under $8,800 to replace all 117 phones. Any old phone that still works will save money, any softphone that can be used will save money.
What's generating the $11,000 of unknown costs for option 4?
That's not a great phone
Bare bones for sure, but it works. Have you seen issues with it?
If it's a shit phone, the docs won't accept it. Like banks, a minimal professional appearance is required.
Hell, the fact that the handsets have such a low profile and really hurt your neck when holding the phone to your head with your shoulder practically kills them.
How did you get from bare bones to shit phone that doesn't look professional? What does "looks professional" mean to them, anyway? They want it to look like a receptionist's phone?
Phones with a super low button count look like joke phones to most people in a business environment. Sure, not a practical thing, but a person thing. And for a one time cost, probably worthwhile from a moral perspective.
FFS.
I know, I'm always unsure if he's mocking the doctors or they are really that moronic. But I'm pretty sure he's serious, and they really look up to the secretaries and wish that they could answer calls and put people on hold all day like REAL professionals do.
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@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@coliver said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@Dashrender said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@Dashrender said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@JaredBusch said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
Just doing really quick numbers, if you went with standard Sangoma SIP phones (the ones made by the FreePBX people) at default Amazon pricing (no bulk discounts or special rates) that would be under $8,800 to replace all 117 phones. Any old phone that still works will save money, any softphone that can be used will save money.
What's generating the $11,000 of unknown costs for option 4?
That's not a great phone
Bare bones for sure, but it works. Have you seen issues with it?
If it's a shit phone, the docs won't accept it. Like banks, a minimal professional appearance is required.
Hell, the fact that the handsets have such a low profile and really hurt your neck when holding the phone to your head with your shoulder practically kills them.
How did you get from bare bones to shit phone that doesn't look professional? What does "looks professional" mean to them, anyway? They want it to look like a receptionist's phone?
Phones with a super low button count look like joke phones to most people in a business environment. Sure, not a practical thing, but a person thing. And for a one time cost, probably worthwhile from a moral perspective.
FFS.
I know, I'm always unsure if he's mocking the doctors or they are really that moronic. But I'm pretty sure he's serious, and they really look up to the secretaries and wish that they could answer calls and put people on hold all day like REAL professionals do.
I just... can't comprehend this line of thinking. I get that they want to seem professional but fewer buttons, not more, looks far more professional to the untrained, and trained for that matter, eye. I always saw the crazy number of buttons at doctors offices (combined with the scratched out and aging button maps) as unclean and unprofessional.
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@coliver said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@coliver said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@Dashrender said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@Dashrender said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@JaredBusch said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
Just doing really quick numbers, if you went with standard Sangoma SIP phones (the ones made by the FreePBX people) at default Amazon pricing (no bulk discounts or special rates) that would be under $8,800 to replace all 117 phones. Any old phone that still works will save money, any softphone that can be used will save money.
What's generating the $11,000 of unknown costs for option 4?
That's not a great phone
Bare bones for sure, but it works. Have you seen issues with it?
If it's a shit phone, the docs won't accept it. Like banks, a minimal professional appearance is required.
Hell, the fact that the handsets have such a low profile and really hurt your neck when holding the phone to your head with your shoulder practically kills them.
How did you get from bare bones to shit phone that doesn't look professional? What does "looks professional" mean to them, anyway? They want it to look like a receptionist's phone?
Phones with a super low button count look like joke phones to most people in a business environment. Sure, not a practical thing, but a person thing. And for a one time cost, probably worthwhile from a moral perspective.
FFS.
I know, I'm always unsure if he's mocking the doctors or they are really that moronic. But I'm pretty sure he's serious, and they really look up to the secretaries and wish that they could answer calls and put people on hold all day like REAL professionals do.
I just... can't comprehend this line of thinking. I get that they want to seem professional but fewer buttons, not more, looks far more professional to the untrained, and trained for that matter, eye. I always saw the crazy number of buttons at doctors offices (combined with the scratched out and aging button maps) as unclean and unprofessional.
Exactly... it suggests that they aren't very smart (money wasteful) and/or that they spend their days managing phone calls and are basically minimum wage workers.
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This in the end is a business decision, if they don't want to use the right tools for the job that's on them and not you. Present them the numbers and the functionality and let them pick. Implement and support whatever they choose.
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@coliver said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
This in the end is a business decision, if they don't want to use the right tools for the job that's on them and not you. Present them the numbers and the functionality and let them pick. Implement and support whatever they choose.
So what tool would you prefer? that you have to scroll through a list every time you want to do something on the phone? instead of having a dedicated button to the task?
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Let's assume we can get the phones down to $10K because we buy several of the more advanced models, but most at the $75 rate Scott mentioned - We're still at $3K more before you look at infrastructure upgrades (cables and switches), which will be at least another $2500, making the solution $5500 more than option 2.
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Sadly the lost cost phone does not do Gig ports. But it DOES look more modern and professional than the existing phones. So a step in the right direction.
http://www.sangoma.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Sangoma_DataSheet_Phone-S300.pdf
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@Dashrender said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@coliver said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
This in the end is a business decision, if they don't want to use the right tools for the job that's on them and not you. Present them the numbers and the functionality and let them pick. Implement and support whatever they choose.
So what tool would you prefer? that you have to scroll through a list every time you want to do something on the phone? instead of having a dedicated button to the task?
Well.... to do what? What task do doctors perform that requires lots of phone buttons? Having a few to quickly reach certain people can make sense, but how many? How much "calling from public spaces" do doctors do? And what makes you need to scroll to do it? This isn't something I'd imagine a professional needing to do very often, so I'm struggling to figure out what to fix as I'm not sure what is broken. A secretary needing lightning fast access to every extension is assumed, but the doctor would normally be expected to pass phone management to the secretary.
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@Dashrender said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
Let's assume we can get the phones down to $10K because we buy several of the more advanced models, but most at the $75 rate Scott mentioned - We're still at $3K more before you look at infrastructure upgrades (cables and switches), which will be at least another $2500, making the solution $5500 more than option 2.
Yeah, that's still a bit sadly.
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@Dashrender said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@coliver said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
This in the end is a business decision, if they don't want to use the right tools for the job that's on them and not you. Present them the numbers and the functionality and let them pick. Implement and support whatever they choose.
So what tool would you prefer? that you have to scroll through a list every time you want to do something on the phone? instead of having a dedicated button to the task?
I prefer to scroll, because it's something I do once or twice a year, why waste the money on the fringe 1-2% of activities I'm using the phone for. I doubt I would save any more time using a button over a menu system.
I'm going to go back to my other question. Where are these phones located? Are these in patient rooms or in doctor's offices?
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@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
scroll to do it? This isn't something I'd imagine a professional needing to do very often, so I'm struggling to figure out what to fix
I Already listed the buttons needed, but here they are again, and this doesn't include any quick dial extension buttons.
DND
call forwarding
voice mail
transfer
on hold
3 calling lines
intercom
conferencing
muteThose three line displays have 6 buttons on them, normally two of them are for previous/next page, so that leaves 4 buttons per display.
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@Dashrender said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
Let's assume we can get the phones down to $10K because we buy several of the more advanced models, but most at the $75 rate Scott mentioned - We're still at $3K more before you look at infrastructure upgrades (cables and switches), which will be at least another $2500, making the solution $5500 more than option 2.
Still quite a bit more. May want to get a firm grasp on long term support costs, but you wouldn't pay for the change over in a 5 year window that's for sure.
Out of curiosity why wouldn't the infrastructure upgrades be included with the other options? Seems like any new phone will require CAT5 or better wiring.
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@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@Dashrender said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
Let's assume we can get the phones down to $10K because we buy several of the more advanced models, but most at the $75 rate Scott mentioned - We're still at $3K more before you look at infrastructure upgrades (cables and switches), which will be at least another $2500, making the solution $5500 more than option 2.
Yeah, that's still a bit sadly.
Assuming $1000/yr for software updates and support to install them, that $5K is the operating cash for the next 5 years.
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@Dashrender said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Sunk Cost Fallacy?:
scroll to do it? This isn't something I'd imagine a professional needing to do very often, so I'm struggling to figure out what to fix
I Already listed the buttons needed, but here they are again, and this doesn't include any quick dial extension buttons.
DND
call forwarding
voice mail
transfer
on hold
3 calling lines
intercom
conferencing
muteThose three line displays have 6 buttons on them, normally two of them are for previous/next page, so that leaves 4 buttons per display.
Odd, the cheap Yealink phones I deployed had all of these available as hard buttons, or soft context aware buttons.
