The Software RAID Inflection Point
-
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
Or does a RAID card something else that I'm missing.
RAID card assumes you'll only attach things to it that you want to work in a specific way. MD can't do that.
Please help the feable with examples of things that would work in a different way, and why you would expect that to happen in a MD setup, but not in a RAID controller setup.
RAID controller makes assumption, like you are replacing the failed drive. MD doesn't know if you are starting to build a new array, for example, or if the drive is not meant for part of that array. The RAID controller is limited, it only sees disks meant for its arrays. MD sees every device on the system. Do you want MD RAID to automatically grab that USB Backup drive that you were busy using to recover critical documents and format it as part of your RAID 6 array? If not, why not?
-
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
Ok, onto something a little more practical. Mirrored USB boot drives and a "normal" storage array. Or mirrored SD card storage. Lots of different things about that md just handles without muss or fuss.
I literally only see a string of words above.. they make no sense what so ever, and even less when trying to understand the MD managing drives.
I use MD to build an 8 drive array in my Dell server. A drive on slot 0 fails. Now what? MD can't be made smart enough to make the BIOS/UEFI blink the light and unmount the drive? If it can't why not? Again I'm clearning missing something.
You are missing that your use case is just one of thousands for MD RAID and you can't assume it to be everyone's use case. Mirrored USB boot drives, SD cards and such are normal situations for MD RAID.
-
RAID Hardware sees.... drives destined for RAID arrays. MD sees everything on the system. They are very different from that one perspective alone.
-
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
its arrays. MD sees every device on the system. Do you want MD RAID to automatically grab that USB Backup drive that you
Because you told it during setup to not do that. You told it during setup that in the case of failed drive that you would put the new drive in the old drives connection.
-
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
RAID Hardware sees.... drives destined for RAID arrays. MD sees everything on the system. They are very different from that one perspective alone.
OK, great, I get that - but nothing stops you from saying, this array is these device only, and when a fail happens do x.
-
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@travisdh1 said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
Or does a RAID card something else that I'm missing.
RAID card assumes you'll only attach things to it that you want to work in a specific way. MD can't do that.
Please help the feable with examples of things that would work in a different way, and why you would expect that to happen in a MD setup, but not in a RAID controller setup.
Floopy drive RAID array!
Ok, onto something a little more practical. Mirrored USB boot drives and a "normal" storage array. Or mirrored SD card storage. Lots of different things about that md just handles without muss or fuss.
I literally only see a string of words above.. they make no sense what so ever, and even less when trying to understand the MD managing drives.
I use MD to build an 8 drive array in my Dell server. A drive on slot 0 fails. Now what? MD can't be made smart enough to make the BIOS/UEFI blink the light and unmount the drive? If it can't why not? Again I'm clearning missing something.
You can automate that functionality if you want, but MD is not just about hard drives. Heck, you could use it with TAPE! You can't just automate it assuming hard drives are being used.
-
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
RAID Hardware sees.... drives destined for RAID arrays. MD sees everything on the system. They are very different from that one perspective alone.
OK, great, I get that - but nothing stops you from saying, this array is these device only, and when a fail happens do x.
So do it. Nothing is stopping someone from automating the process. It's just never sold to someone like that.
-
@travisdh1 said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
RAID Hardware sees.... drives destined for RAID arrays. MD sees everything on the system. They are very different from that one perspective alone.
OK, great, I get that - but nothing stops you from saying, this array is these device only, and when a fail happens do x.
So do it. Nothing is stopping someone from automating the process. It's just never sold to someone like that.
And the question is, why not?
Scott clearly loves software RAID - So why not make systems that automate this process based around limits you put in place? If something falls outside those limits, manual intervention will of course be required.
-
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
RAID Hardware sees.... drives destined for RAID arrays. MD sees everything on the system. They are very different from that one perspective alone.
OK, great, I get that - but nothing stops you from saying, this array is these device only, and when a fail happens do x.
Right, but that's not logic that belongs in MD. That's for you to provide afterwards. That's a higher level function.
-
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@travisdh1 said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
RAID Hardware sees.... drives destined for RAID arrays. MD sees everything on the system. They are very different from that one perspective alone.
OK, great, I get that - but nothing stops you from saying, this array is these device only, and when a fail happens do x.
So do it. Nothing is stopping someone from automating the process. It's just never sold to someone like that.
And the question is, why not?
Scott clearly loves software RAID - So why not make systems that automate this process based around limits you put in place? If something falls outside those limits, manual intervention will of course be required.
Because there is generally too much desire for flexibility and in large shops there is no need for this and small ones there is no market pressure.
-
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@travisdh1 said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
RAID Hardware sees.... drives destined for RAID arrays. MD sees everything on the system. They are very different from that one perspective alone.
OK, great, I get that - but nothing stops you from saying, this array is these device only, and when a fail happens do x.
So do it. Nothing is stopping someone from automating the process. It's just never sold to someone like that.
And the question is, why not?
Scott clearly loves software RAID - So why not make systems that automate this process based around limits you put in place? If something falls outside those limits, manual intervention will of course be required.
Because there is generally too much desire for flexibility and in large shops there is no need for this and small ones there is no market pressure.
No market pressure in small shops because they just go hardware RAID instead?
-
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@travisdh1 said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
RAID Hardware sees.... drives destined for RAID arrays. MD sees everything on the system. They are very different from that one perspective alone.
OK, great, I get that - but nothing stops you from saying, this array is these device only, and when a fail happens do x.
So do it. Nothing is stopping someone from automating the process. It's just never sold to someone like that.
And the question is, why not?
Scott clearly loves software RAID - So why not make systems that automate this process based around limits you put in place? If something falls outside those limits, manual intervention will of course be required.
Because there is generally too much desire for flexibility and in large shops there is no need for this and small ones there is no market pressure.
No market pressure in small shops because they just go hardware RAID instead?
Yup, they aren't looking for a solution like that. And it would be rather complicated because you still can't visually inspect for it and know that it is always going to be the same and so forth.
-
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@travisdh1 said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
RAID Hardware sees.... drives destined for RAID arrays. MD sees everything on the system. They are very different from that one perspective alone.
OK, great, I get that - but nothing stops you from saying, this array is these device only, and when a fail happens do x.
So do it. Nothing is stopping someone from automating the process. It's just never sold to someone like that.
And the question is, why not?
Scott clearly loves software RAID - So why not make systems that automate this process based around limits you put in place? If something falls outside those limits, manual intervention will of course be required.
Because there is generally too much desire for flexibility and in large shops there is no need for this and small ones there is no market pressure.
No market pressure in small shops because they just go hardware RAID instead?
And because there is no money in NOT selling solutions.
-
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@travisdh1 said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
RAID Hardware sees.... drives destined for RAID arrays. MD sees everything on the system. They are very different from that one perspective alone.
OK, great, I get that - but nothing stops you from saying, this array is these device only, and when a fail happens do x.
So do it. Nothing is stopping someone from automating the process. It's just never sold to someone like that.
And the question is, why not?
Scott clearly loves software RAID - So why not make systems that automate this process based around limits you put in place? If something falls outside those limits, manual intervention will of course be required.
Because there is generally too much desire for flexibility and in large shops there is no need for this and small ones there is no market pressure.
No market pressure in small shops because they just go hardware RAID instead?
And because there is no money in NOT selling solutions.
No money in not selling solutions - huh? NTG for example could make money selling this solution. They get paid to set it up. Assuming the solution can blink the lights, then from that point forward, a bench tech can swap drives without concern.
-
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@travisdh1 said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
RAID Hardware sees.... drives destined for RAID arrays. MD sees everything on the system. They are very different from that one perspective alone.
OK, great, I get that - but nothing stops you from saying, this array is these device only, and when a fail happens do x.
So do it. Nothing is stopping someone from automating the process. It's just never sold to someone like that.
And the question is, why not?
Scott clearly loves software RAID - So why not make systems that automate this process based around limits you put in place? If something falls outside those limits, manual intervention will of course be required.
Because there is generally too much desire for flexibility and in large shops there is no need for this and small ones there is no market pressure.
No market pressure in small shops because they just go hardware RAID instead?
And because there is no money in NOT selling solutions.
No money in not selling solutions - huh? NTG for example could make money selling this solution. They get paid to set it up. Assuming the solution can blink the lights, then from that point forward, a bench tech can swap drives without concern.
Right, but you have a disconnect. The money to be made is from people unrelated to the ones that would spend the fortune to build the software to do it. And those that get paid to set it up that way already get paid to set it up the even longer way. So it's negative money to them.
Who do you foresee investing money into this that could ever recoup it?
-
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
They get paid to set it up. Assuming the solution can blink the lights, then from that point forward, a bench tech can swap drives without concern.
- Get paid to set it up = negative income since they are now paid less to set it up AND they had to spend $100K making this solution and supporting it for forever.
- Letting "just anyone" swap drives lowest the dependence on an MSP, against, negative money.
I'm not saying that MSPs / ITSPs wouldn't use it if it existed. I'm saying that none are going to be making wise business decisions to invest heavily in obsoleting themselves. They could just "do the work for free" if that was their goal. And the biggest beneficiaries would be "every other MSP" who would get it for free.
-
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@travisdh1 said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
RAID Hardware sees.... drives destined for RAID arrays. MD sees everything on the system. They are very different from that one perspective alone.
OK, great, I get that - but nothing stops you from saying, this array is these device only, and when a fail happens do x.
So do it. Nothing is stopping someone from automating the process. It's just never sold to someone like that.
And the question is, why not?
Scott clearly loves software RAID - So why not make systems that automate this process based around limits you put in place? If something falls outside those limits, manual intervention will of course be required.
Because there is generally too much desire for flexibility and in large shops there is no need for this and small ones there is no market pressure.
No market pressure in small shops because they just go hardware RAID instead?
And because there is no money in NOT selling solutions.
No money in not selling solutions - huh? NTG for example could make money selling this solution. They get paid to set it up. Assuming the solution can blink the lights, then from that point forward, a bench tech can swap drives without concern.
Right, but you have a disconnect. The money to be made is from people unrelated to the ones that would spend the fortune to build the software to do it. And those that get paid to set it up that way already get paid to set it up the even longer way. So it's negative money to them.
Who do you foresee investing money into this that could ever recoup it?
Who pays for MD development now?
-
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
They get paid to set it up. Assuming the solution can blink the lights, then from that point forward, a bench tech can swap drives without concern.
- Get paid to set it up = negative income since they are now paid less to set it up AND they had to spend $100K making this solution and supporting it for forever.
- Letting "just anyone" swap drives lowest the dependence on an MSP, against, negative money.
I'm not saying that MSPs / ITSPs wouldn't use it if it existed. I'm saying that none are going to be making wise business decisions to invest heavily in obsoleting themselves. They could just "do the work for free" if that was their goal. And the biggest beneficiaries would be "every other MSP" who would get it for free.
I'm really lost again - MSPs / ITSPs are setting up hardware RAID today. This typically takes mere mins or less to configure, so setting up MD would take longer (probably) and give them more billable time.
The hardware RAID is already taking away the work from MSPs / ITSPs, so what's the difference there?
-
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@travisdh1 said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
@scottalanmiller said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
RAID Hardware sees.... drives destined for RAID arrays. MD sees everything on the system. They are very different from that one perspective alone.
OK, great, I get that - but nothing stops you from saying, this array is these device only, and when a fail happens do x.
So do it. Nothing is stopping someone from automating the process. It's just never sold to someone like that.
And the question is, why not?
Scott clearly loves software RAID - So why not make systems that automate this process based around limits you put in place? If something falls outside those limits, manual intervention will of course be required.
Because there is generally too much desire for flexibility and in large shops there is no need for this and small ones there is no market pressure.
No market pressure in small shops because they just go hardware RAID instead?
And because there is no money in NOT selling solutions.
No money in not selling solutions - huh? NTG for example could make money selling this solution. They get paid to set it up. Assuming the solution can blink the lights, then from that point forward, a bench tech can swap drives without concern.
Right, but you have a disconnect. The money to be made is from people unrelated to the ones that would spend the fortune to build the software to do it. And those that get paid to set it up that way already get paid to set it up the even longer way. So it's negative money to them.
Who do you foresee investing money into this that could ever recoup it?
Who pays for MD development now?
The OS vendors, of course. It's part of the OS.
-
@Dashrender said in The Software RAID Inflection Point:
The hardware RAID is already taking away the work from MSPs / ITSPs, so what's the difference there?
It doesn't work that way. It takes no time to set up either. MD RAID is already a "zero effort" set up process. But there is pay for supporting it. It's not that this would really hurt an MSP, but it would cost a fortune to make it and support the code, money that could never be recouped, not even with tens of thousands of customers all using it.
