Never Let the Vendor Set Up a Server
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@Breffni-Potter said:
1 hour on site for racking work at your office, £100 as a ballpark.
Actual IT work, DOA testing, Raid config, ESXI setup done on a bench in the corner. £300 ish.
So the extra £350 you currently pay, what do you get with that?
Nothing. Are you sending an engineer from London or do you have someone local? £100 seems very cheap. That's likely to be a 3 or 4 hour job when you include travel time isn't it?
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
I buy the server from Company A but the installation service from Company B. Company B estimate 4 hours work so quote $400. The server arrives and Company B start the project.
So if you use all company A, how does this change? If you buy a server through Company A and you order four hours of IT work from them and the server that you get is not ready when you have scheduled them to come out and work sure, they might decide to give you a break because they are handling all of the parts, but in reality there is not really any difference here, for the most part, between them needing to be paid and Company B needing to be paid. Even if you are getting the work totally from Company A they still have to schedule the people and pay them even if the parts are bad. That's why, whether you use all company A, a mix of company A & B or all internal departments we don't schedule next steps until previous steps are done. There is lots of risk and wasted money from big, or even little, unknowns and surprises.
Now when you buy everything from one vendor, you can put more pressure on them, but you are just lowering the margins and making them less likely to want to work with you or you will encourage them to pad more if you aggressively schedule them to do IT work for which the equipment has not been tested yet. Hopefully they would warn you not to have the resources from the IT side all lined up and billing by the hour before the bench work was validated.
Interesting - I've personally never seen this approach before - it does make sense, I've just never seen it.
As an SMB consultant I did it all - the so called bench work (installing the components into the chassis and racking it), and the RAID/OS/etc IT work.
Better for IT to do the bench work than for the bench people to do the IT work. In theory the bench work is minimal in scope (few hours here and there) whereas the IT work is probably larger in scope (maybe a few hours up front but is part of your ongoing oversight and control.)
Larger firms, like NTG, have bench staff in some locations and what most do is they use a "remote hands" service to have bench people anywhere. Bench people are cheap and easy to get. And they don't need deep insight into the business, they are stateless. They are almost exclusively advanced manual labour. So having IT people do this just is a little expensive per hour, but having bench people do IT work is risky as critical IT decisions are being made by the people not trained for that or not employed by you in that role.
In the OP's case, it could be either. He's paying IT rates for bench work, for sure. The installation is quite expensive. But they are not part of his IT team, so the approach is treating them like bench (not letting them be part of the ongoing IT operations and making them part of the decision making process.)
This is one of the ways where one man shops suffer because they can't have bench staff as part of their team they are stuck throwing their high price resources at manual labour (I've done it before) and you wind up either not earning what you are worth or having to charge too much and in many cases wind up not being great at bench work because it isn't something that you do often. I'm terrible at racking servers, for example, because I do it so rarely. A full time racker can rack a server reliably, the right way in minutes. Me, might take me an hour longer and I might break something in the process. All while costing too much.
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@Breffni-Potter said:
More importantly why are the supplier doing the config work on site for you? They should do it at their bench.
They generally have done in the past, but they didn't for this last job. I don't know why. They asked if I was ok with them doing it here and I was. I don't particularly mind either way. I quite like to keep an eye on them when they're but doing it off-site is also fine.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
Nothing. Are you sending an engineer from London or do you have someone local? £100 seems very cheap. That's likely to be a 3 or 4 hour job when you include travel time isn't it?
RAID and VMware setup should be round about an hour total, no travel needed. RAID setup is five minutes unless a discussion has to happen about it. VMware install is normally under ten minutes. You need to check things, get access, etc. So no realistic way to be under an hour. But the actual work to be done is a few minutes.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@Breffni-Potter said:
More importantly why are the supplier doing the config work on site for you? They should do it at their bench.
They generally have done in the past, but they didn't for this last job. I don't know why. They asked if I was ok with them doing it here and I was. I don't particularly mind either way. I quite like to keep an eye on them when they're but doing it off-site is also fine.
If they are already there, I'd say that is six of one, half dozen of the other. Fine either way.
Only reason that I an adamant about doing the setup remotely is that it immediately tests the out of band management and other external access mechanisms from the moment go and doesn't allow for those things to be missed which, I've found, is a big gap in a lot of scenarios and very worth checking.
I like to have my remote hands people call the IT staff and have remote access tested and checked off before the bench guy walks away.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@Dashrender said:
I'm curious, if he ran into problems that made this take a full day and one hour on the second day, would you be charged for two full days? Or only for one day? Again I'd say it depends on if you are being charged time and materials vs project.
Lemme try and answer all your points here. The answer is, it depends. If it's an act of God, I'd likely pay. If it's a problem they have caused, for example their salesman hasn't ordered the right parts, or even that the parts are faulty, then I wouldn't pay - even if it took 2 or 3 days. So we generally come to an agreement depending on the cause. Both parties try and be reasonable. We're both about the long term relationship so we don't squabble much about a few hundred bucks here and there.
So the problem is, if I ordered the kit from another company and there was a problem with it, it is much harder for me to ask them to come back another day and not charge me. So that's why I'd prefer to get the kit from them, providing it doesn't put me out to much, as it just seems a reasonable and fair thing to do. I don't always do it because they can't always get a good price, but I try and do it.
This makes sense at a "good vendor relationship" level. All makes perfect sense. The benefit to the separation as I described it, though, is that it protects you from that (normally) while providing the benefits of having the best staff for each role do that role.
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@scottalanmiller said:
RAID and VMware setup should be round about an hour total, no travel needed.
@Breffni-Potter is talking about sending an engineer to rack up the server. That's what I was asking about.
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@scottalanmiller said:
What if there was cabling to be run, would you lump unionized (in the US) electrician labour in too?
This is the UK, we don't do unions.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@scottalanmiller said:
What if there was cabling to be run, would you lump unionized (in the US) electrician labour in too?
This is the UK, we don't do unions.
Really? That's awesome. Where do your strikes come from then?
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@Breffni-Potter said:
@Carnival-Boy - First I must unleash the legal disclaimer.
"The following statement does not constitute a quotation or guarantee or offer of goods and services"
Why won't the server come from Misco to my office? Then I build the raid? Do the config? setup remote access tools, then stick it on a courier to you.
Alternatively, I stick it on a courier, then get an engineer who just does bench work over to you, he un-boxes the server, sticks it in the rack, makes it look good, then he walks off.
Only issue here.... how much does the courier cost (in the US this would easily be a few hundred dollars) and how much does the bench racker cost? You'll need to coordinate a third party for the remote hands. Might be cheap but it won't be from the installation purchase so adds an extra party and extra shipping to the process. Doing it on your site isn't a band approach but it does add caveats worth considering.
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@Breffni-Potter said:
@Carnival-Boy - First I must unleash the legal disclaimer.
"The following statement does not constitute a quotation or guarantee or offer of goods and services"
Why won't the server come from Misco to my office? Then I build the raid? Do the config? setup remote access tools, then stick it on a courier to you.
Alternatively, I stick it on a courier, then get an engineer who just does bench work over to you, he un-boxes the server, sticks it in the rack, makes it look good, then he walks off.
I then remote in and fix any tweaks or snags.
I am much more expensive than a bog standard racking engineer, so why would you pay my rate to take something out of a box? More importantly why are the supplier doing the config work on site for you? They should do it at their bench.
If you were going to do all this, why not let that bench guy rack it before you do the setup. Where is the benefit to doing most of the setup locally at your own office and shipping twice? Just ship to the final destination right away.
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Yeah there is that as a cost as well.
Yeah we can do that here, but if @Carnival-Boy wants a body over there to take it out of the box and fit it then he has that option.
It would be using a bod closer to you, rather than sending a London bod.
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Oh wait I see.
In the ideal world that's what happens, body on site takes it out, racks it, gets the basics done, then hands over for all remote setup.
Does @Carnival-Boy want to spend the time doing that? So for convenience he'd pass it over to someone else completely to think about, if it is DOA on arrival, his provider just handles it all.
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@Breffni-Potter said:
Oh wait I see.
In the ideal world that's what happens, body on site takes it out, racks it, gets the basics done, then hands over for all remote setup.
Yes, but even in a pretty non-ideal world it remains a really cost effective way to handle it while also getting the right oversight of the work. Only time that you would want to avoid this, that I can think of, is when the IT people are already local and can do the bench work effectively too.
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@Breffni-Potter said:
Yeah there is that as a cost as well.
Yeah we can do that here, but if @Carnival-Boy wants a body over there to take it out of the box and fit it then he has that option.
It would be using a bod closer to you, rather than sending a London bod.
Isn't it his goal not to do that, though? The RAID and the hypervisor are the more important, but easier part. If he is looking to hand off the work at all, it seems like (to me) that the bench work would be the priority to hand off.
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Argh, I really dislike how Mac OSX can't show you what browser you are in.
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@scottalanmiller Stop multi posting
Hence why he still needs to pay for the body at some point in the chain? Isn't your suggestion that @Carnival-Boy does the bench and hands the remote over to someone else?
I'm talking about he gets whatever solution, he doesn't touch it until it's ready for production. All the work up till that point is done by others, different parts being on site or remote is a decision up to him.
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@Breffni-Potter said:
Oh wait I see.
In the ideal world that's what happens, body on site takes it out, racks it, gets the basics done, then hands over for all remote setup.
Does @Carnival-Boy want to spend the time doing that? So for convenience he'd pass it over to someone else completely to think about, if it is DOA on arrival, his provider just handles it all.
Breffni, just to clear I am doing NOTHING. If the server is DOA it would be down to you to arrange a replacement with HP. I don't talk to HP. The only thing I'm doing is raising a purchase order then waiting till I'm told that the server is ready for me to install a VM on.
So you're shipping the configured server to my site and sending an engineer to rack it up, all for £100. As Scott mentioned, how much are you paying in courier fees for that?
If you're thinking it might be better to configure the server remotely, how would you do that? Plug the iLo port directly into our LAN? Then what? This is not an area I'm familiar with, I'd be interested to know how easy it is.
If you still want the job, I'm due another Proliant in the next few months.
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@Breffni-Potter said:
Hence why he still needs to pay for the body at some point in the chain? Isn't your suggestion that @Carnival-Boy does the bench and hands the remote over to someone else?
No, that was not my suggestion. He's free to do that if he wants, of course, but it seems like an odd choice given his other desires. This is the easiest portion to offload. I sure don't do this work myself either, except if there is cool new gear that I just want to play with before it goes into use.
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@Breffni-Potter said:
I'm talking about he gets whatever solution, he doesn't touch it until it's ready for production. All the work up till that point is done by others, different parts being on site or remote is a decision up to him.
Me too. I'm only talking about making sure that the bench work is cost effective if possible (which could include having the IT staff do it or bench people, depends on volume mostly) and that the IT work has proper oversight. Not suggesting that he do any more or less work that he wants.
