Are Minimal installs really better?

[scottalanmiller]

@IRJ said in Are Minimal installs really better?:

Configuration Drift
This is the big one for me. With a full install, you get most of the tools you need for troubleshooting and doing various tasks across the board. With minimal systems you need to add packages one by one as you need them. Which means your image could vary quite a bit from system to system.
Troubleshooting
This takes longer as every set of servers has a different set of tools, and many times needed tools are missing

I don't have this with either. We don't get the drift because we use standards to do the setup. ANd we also find that the baseline is lacking things whether something simple like netstat or something complex like our Zabbix agent. But we have to add on to every box regardless.

[scottalanmiller]

@IRJ said in Are Minimal installs really better?:

@DustinB3403 said in Are Minimal installs really better?:

A lot of these issues can be addressed with tools like Ansible or setup scripts, so I find your topic a bit awkward.

Whatever way you want to slice it, package management is more difficult for OS level packages.

Not sure what you mean. Any tools that will come with the non-minimal install will be handled great by being installed only as desired by Ansible or whatever.

[marcinozga]

@IRJ said in Are Minimal installs really better?:

@DustinB3403 said in Are Minimal installs really better?:

A lot of these issues can be addressed with tools like Ansible or setup scripts, so I find your topic a bit awkward.

Whatever way you want to slice it, package management is more difficult for OS level packages.

Define OS level package, because I have no idea what you mean. I'm guessing it's something from Windows world, but even there I haven't heard about such thing.

How is this any difficult when managing packages:

- name: install some packages
  package:
    name: "{{ item }}"
    state: present
  with_items:
    - package 1
    - package 2
    - etc.......

[DustinB3403]

With the full ISO for example, you'd find yourself wanting to uninstall a bunch of software you don't use.

Do you really need a podcast player on your Fedora Server?

[scottalanmiller]

I prefer minimal in most cases. I'm tired of the bloat. Not because it takes up so much disk space, but that's where bad things happen. Tools having issues that I didn't need to have there at all.

[black3dynamite]

@scottalanmiller said in Are Minimal installs really better?:

I prefer minimal in most cases. I'm tired of the bloat. Not because it takes up so much disk space, but that's where bad things happen. Tools having issues that I didn't need to have there at all.

Don’t you normally installed Fedora Server instead of minimal?

[IRJ]

@scottalanmiller said in Are Minimal installs really better?:

Tools having issues that I didn't need to have there at all.

I dont know if that is true. If a tool lay dormant and/or a service isn't running what kind of affect will it have? I find myself needing additionally shit after a packer image has been created and all the supposedly needed stuff has already been added.

[1337]

@IRJ
I think it's best to start with the smallest most basic thing and then add what you think you always need. That becomes your personal or company's minimal install and that might be larger or smaller than someone's else because we all need different things.

If we are talking Fedora Minimal Install then it's actually a pretty bloated affair compared to others like Debian for instance (only the base system, no extras). Even Fedora Custom Operating System option, which I assume is smaller than minimal, is bloated in comparison.

I have both installed on my test host in the latest versions and looking at dmesg Debian boots in 2.7 secs compared to Fedora's minimal/custom 9.7 secs. After boot Debian uses ~80MB RAM while Fedora uses ~240MB RAM. Fedora of course has more services running by default and pulls in more packages during install. Even Fedora Server's netinstall disk image is about twice the size.

[scottalanmiller]

@black3dynamite said in Are Minimal installs really better?:

@scottalanmiller said in Are Minimal installs really better?:

I prefer minimal in most cases. I'm tired of the bloat. Not because it takes up so much disk space, but that's where bad things happen. Tools having issues that I didn't need to have there at all.

Don’t you normally installed Fedora Server instead of minimal?

I do on Fedora, but not on most things. I find that Fedora Server I use quite a lot of.

[Emad R]

@IRJ

Minimal but not to the point of reaching alpine linux minimal. If you consider what is driving containers and everything it is about being very small and launch in seconds.. and they told me crazy when I spend hours making Windows xp and 7 as lite as possible 10 years ago and trimming the fat just to run single app like a game, i was such visionary.

[1337]

Also even when you install something bigger, what you need isn't always there anyway.

I consider for instance screen to be a pretty basic tool. Not in Fedora Server.
nmap ? Not in Fedora Server.
tcpdump? Yes, it was there.
iperf ? No, not in Fedora Server.
smartctl ? Yes, it was there.

I think whatever you distro/installation options you pick, you are going to need to add stuff anyway. If that is part of the post-installation process then it's going to be there when you need it.

[IRJ]

@Pete-S said in Are Minimal installs really better?:

Also even when you install something bigger, what you need isn't always there anyway.

I consider for instance screen to be a pretty basic tool. Not in Fedora Server.
nmap ? Not in Fedora Server.
tcpdump? Yes, it was there.
iperf ? No, not in Fedora Server.
smartctl ? Yes, it was there.

I think whatever you distro/installation options you pick, you are going to need to add stuff anyway. If that is part of the post-installation process then it's going to be there when you need it.

The problem is that when you have many different admins that use different tools. You might use Nmap while some people just want to use netcat. If netcat isn't installed, I probably wouldn't even think to use Nmap just because Nmap isn't standard. Nmap will also trigger the hell out IDS systems

Every admin is going to install their own shit and they will be configuration drift. If you had the full sever install there is arguably enough tools to do everything. Sure you are going to want to install a few packages, but not the amount you will add with minimal.

[1337]

@IRJ said in Are Minimal installs really better?:

If you had the full sever install there is arguably enough tools to do everything.

The above stuff was from Fedora Server install, not minimal.

[IRJ]

@Pete-S said in Are Minimal installs really better?:

@IRJ said in Are Minimal installs really better?:

If you had the full sever install there is arguably enough tools to do everything.

The above stuff was from Fedora Server install, not minimal.

You left out my next sentence

If you had the full sever install there is arguably enough tools to do everything. Sure you are going to want to install a few packages, but not the amount you will add with minimal.

[1337]

@IRJ said in Are Minimal installs really better?:

Every admin is going to install their own shit and they will be configuration drift.

That's a company standard problem, not an OS problem.

If a couple of guys doing admin work on the same machines sit down and think through what they use, you could probably come up with a comprehensive list that makes everyone happy. Post-install those packages are added on every machine.

On a regular basis you review the package list and add stuff or remove stuff and that becomes the new standard. Then push it out to all servers with automation.

[1337]

@IRJ said in Are Minimal installs really better?:

@Pete-S said in Are Minimal installs really better?:

@IRJ said in Are Minimal installs really better?:

If you had the full sever install there is arguably enough tools to do everything.

The above stuff was from Fedora Server install, not minimal.

You left out my next sentence

If you had the full sever install there is arguably enough tools to do everything. Sure you are going to want to install a few packages, but not the amount you will add with minimal.

OK, I get it now.

Well, if you think Fedora Server is closer to what you want in a minimal install I don't see a problem using that instead. And then adding whatever is missing.

You get stuff like cockpit too but maybe that is something you always want.

I don't know if fedora has a list of packages that are added for each installation option.

[black3dynamite]

@Pete-S said in Are Minimal installs really better?:

@IRJ said in Are Minimal installs really better?:

@Pete-S said in Are Minimal installs really better?:

@IRJ said in Are Minimal installs really better?:

If you had the full sever install there is arguably enough tools to do everything.

The above stuff was from Fedora Server install, not minimal.

You left out my next sentence

If you had the full sever install there is arguably enough tools to do everything. Sure you are going to want to install a few packages, but not the amount you will add with minimal.

OK, I get it now.

Well, if you think Fedora Server is closer to what you want in a minimal install I don't see a problem using that instead. And then adding whatever is missing.

You get stuff like cockpit too but maybe that is something you always want.

I don't know if fedora has a list of packages that are added for each installation option.

View group installs
dnf grouplist

View packages within group installs
dnf groupinfo "Development Tools"

[1337]

Fedora Server adds this over Minimal Install (in Fedora 30)
I looked at:
dnf group list
and
dnf group info "<groupname>"

Difference between Minimal Install and Fedora Server Edition:

It's not the whole truth though because some of these packages are installed in Minimal Install but they are listed as optional. I don't know when packages that are marked optional actually are installed or not. One example is the packages in the Standard group.

   Common NetworkManager Submodules
      NetworkManager-bluetooth
      NetworkManager-wifi
      NetworkManager-wwan
      dhcp-client
      dnsmasq
      iptables

   Fedora Server product core
      PackageKit
      chrony
      polkit
      realmd
      timedatex
      NetworkManager-team
      dhcp-client
      fedora-release-server

   Hardware Support
      atmel-firmware
      b43-fwcutter
      b43-openfwwf
      ipw2100-firmware
      ipw2200-firmware
      iwl100-firmware
      iwl1000-firmware
      iwl105-firmware
      iwl135-firmware
      iwl2000-firmware
      iwl2030-firmware
      iwl3160-firmware
      iwl3945-firmware
      iwl4965-firmware
      iwl5000-firmware
      iwl5150-firmware
      iwl6000-firmware
      iwl6000g2a-firmware
      iwl6000g2b-firmware
      iwl6050-firmware
      iwl7260-firmware
      libertas-usb8388-firmware
      usb_modeswitch
      zd1211-firmware

   Headless Management
      PackageKit
      cockpit
      openssh-server
      cockpit-networkmanager
      cockpit-packagekit
      cockpit-selinux
      cockpit-storaged

   Standard
      abrt-cli
      acl
      at
      attr
      bash-completion
      bc
      bind-utils
      bridge-utils
      btrfs-progs
      bzip2
      cifs-utils
      cpio
      crontabs
      cryptsetup
      cyrus-sasl-plain
      dbus
      deltarpm
      dos2unix
      dosfstools
      ed
      ethtool
      fedora-release-notes
      file
      fpaste
      fprintd-pam
      gnupg2
      grubby
      hunspell
      iptstate
      irqbalance
      jwhois
      logrotate
      lsof
      mailcap
      man-pages
      mcelog
      mdadm
      microcode_ctl
      mlocate
      mtr
      nano
      net-tools
      nfs-utils
      nmap-ncat
      ntfs-3g
      ntfsprogs
      opensc
      pam_krb5
      passwdqc
      pciutils
      pinfo
      plymouth
      psacct
      quota
      realmd
      rng-tools
      rsync
      rsyslog
      smartmontools
      sos
      sssd
      sudo
      symlinks
      systemd-udev
      tar
      tcpdump
      telnet
      time
      traceroute
      tree
      unzip
      usbutils
      util-linux-user
      vconfig
      wget
      which
      wireless-tools
      words
      zip

[1337]

@black3dynamite said in Are Minimal installs really better?:

I don't know if fedora has a list of packages that are added for each installation option.

View group installs
dnf grouplist

View packages within group installs
dnf groupinfo "Development Tools"

Thanks, I managed to figure that out.

[black3dynamite]

@Pete-S said in Are Minimal installs really better?:

Fedora Server adds this over Minimal Install (in Fedora 30)
I looked at:
dnf group list
and
dnf group info "<groupname>"

Difference between Minimal Install and Fedora Server Edition:

It's not the whole truth though because some of these packages are installed in Minimal Install but they are listed as optional. I don't know when packages that are marked optional actually are installed or not. One example is the packages in the Standard group.

   Common NetworkManager Submodules
      NetworkManager-bluetooth
      NetworkManager-wifi
      NetworkManager-wwan
      dhcp-client
      dnsmasq
      iptables

   Fedora Server product core
      PackageKit
      chrony
      polkit
      realmd
      timedatex
      NetworkManager-team
      dhcp-client
      fedora-release-server

   Hardware Support
      atmel-firmware
      b43-fwcutter
      b43-openfwwf
      ipw2100-firmware
      ipw2200-firmware
      iwl100-firmware
      iwl1000-firmware
      iwl105-firmware
      iwl135-firmware
      iwl2000-firmware
      iwl2030-firmware
      iwl3160-firmware
      iwl3945-firmware
      iwl4965-firmware
      iwl5000-firmware
      iwl5150-firmware
      iwl6000-firmware
      iwl6000g2a-firmware
      iwl6000g2b-firmware
      iwl6050-firmware
      iwl7260-firmware
      libertas-usb8388-firmware
      usb_modeswitch
      zd1211-firmware

   Headless Management
      PackageKit
      cockpit
      openssh-server
      cockpit-networkmanager
      cockpit-packagekit
      cockpit-selinux
      cockpit-storaged

   Standard
      abrt-cli
      acl
      at
      attr
      bash-completion
      bc
      bind-utils
      bridge-utils
      btrfs-progs
      bzip2
      cifs-utils
      cpio
      crontabs
      cryptsetup
      cyrus-sasl-plain
      dbus
      deltarpm
      dos2unix
      dosfstools
      ed
      ethtool
      fedora-release-notes
      file
      fpaste
      fprintd-pam
      gnupg2
      grubby
      hunspell
      iptstate
      irqbalance
      jwhois
      logrotate
      lsof
      mailcap
      man-pages
      mcelog
      mdadm
      microcode_ctl
      mlocate
      mtr
      nano
      net-tools
      nfs-utils
      nmap-ncat
      ntfs-3g
      ntfsprogs
      opensc
      pam_krb5
      passwdqc
      pciutils
      pinfo
      plymouth
      psacct
      quota
      realmd
      rng-tools
      rsync
      rsyslog
      smartmontools
      sos
      sssd
      sudo
      symlinks
      systemd-udev
      tar
      tcpdump
      telnet
      time
      traceroute
      tree
      unzip
      usbutils
      util-linux-user
      vconfig
      wget
      which
      wireless-tools
      words
      zip

I know if wanted to include the optional packages, I would use --with-optional