MSP or VAR or just avoid
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@hobbit666 said in MSP or VAR or just avoid:
@scottalanmiller said in MSP or VAR or just avoid:
@kelly said in MSP or VAR or just avoid:
@scottalanmiller said in MSP or VAR or just avoid:
@kelly said in MSP or VAR or just avoid:
The easiest divider I've found is if you have to pay for the time an engineer to tell you what to buy then you're probably talking to an MSP instead of a VAR.
The only problem there, is that some VARs will charge you for labour to hide that they are a VAR.
It's way better to look at it the other way, because the VAR is the taint, not the consulting.
I've never had that happen. Usually they want me to talk to their "sales engineer" for no cost.
That MEANS it's a VAR, always. Anyone who is free, is a salesman.
Think this gets me confused as we always "talk" to the " engineer " get get a solution
A free engineer is a salesman. No exceptions. Just always keep that in mind. They are a sales engineer, they engineer the sale. Just like a network engineer designs your network, a sales engineer designs the sale.
Sales is sales.
Consulting is when you pay for someone to give you advice. Sales is when you pay someone for selling you something you didn't want to buy.
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@hobbit666 said in MSP or VAR or just avoid:
@kelly thanks for that forgot to see who was here before starting lol.
But again this is all good as a discussion to help othersI'll rephrase....... before getting involved
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Using MSPs or ITSPs (many companies are both, but don't use the terminology as it is just easier to say MSP) is generally advised across the board for small businesses, you just need the scale and services that they provide. There is no good option to survive without them. Often, your service providers will bring VAR relationships or experience with them.
In reality, finding a good MSP is way easier than finding a good VAR. because MSPs are pretty easy to judge based on competence as they provide IT. So you can look at the IT that they do and see how good they are. A VAR is very hard to judge because they do sales and how do we as IT pros gauge the quality of their "value add" easily?
Finding "a" VAR is trivially easy, they are everywhere and are a dime a dozen. Finding a good one is essentially impossible. Finding "an" MSP is hard, because they are few and far between. Finding a good one is still hard, but not nearly as hard. Most are incompetent, but the chances of finding a good one is way better than the needle in a haystack problem with a VAR.
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@hobbit666 said in MSP or VAR or just avoid:
@hobbit666 said in MSP or VAR or just avoid:
@kelly thanks for that forgot to see who was here before starting lol.
But again this is all good as a discussion to help othersI'll rephrase....... before getting involved
There are loads here.... many from a new MSPs. MSPs are pretty common in places like ML because 1) it's open for them to participate and 2) MSPs do IT and this is an IT forum so they gravitate to places like this.
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Something else to consider...
Typically every SMB should have an MSP, but only one. Having more than one is complex and problematic. Not always bad, but often bad. It's like having multiple IT departments, you really just want one.
But most businesses should have many VARs, often one for each product or just a few products. A typically VAR, to be any good, has to be highly focused. So you need one for every little thing. Example... if you get a Scale HC3, you'll want a VAR for that. But to put Windows on top of it, you'll get your Windows from a Windows VAR. When you install your ERP on top of Windows, you'll need a VAR for that ERP product, and so forth.
So you normally have loads of VARs, and only one MSP.
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Another thing to just think about... your MSP will need to know "What VAR(s) do you use, and do you like them?"
MSPs need to work with your VARs, because they can't do their IT stuff without them.
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Buyers and Sellers Agents in IT is an important article for this topic.
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Just popping into this converstation. In a nutshell, it would be advantageous to hire someone like @NTG to provide advice on options, equipment types and paths, etc. NTG, like what a true MSP should represent, is NOT a reseller. A true MSP is working for you, in the best interest of your company and the bottom line. They don't care who provides the equipment or the product, just that it is the right fit for your company. @NTG is that type of MSP. They have done work in the UK, and in fact, Scott will be in Wales in June.
From a solutions standpoint, if SQL is required with low latency, then things like high speed DRAM cards, and SSD storage become critical in the selection and ultimately deployment.
The true advantage is that a good MSP with the backing of great engineering can not only proivde world class solutions, but also provide transfer of knowledge. A VAR will never provide that level of support and expertise.
EDIT: A VAR may provide a high level of expertise and support, but only for their products.
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The other nice thing about hiring an MSP, specifically to consult for the initial advice is that you can hire them for a limited engagement just to get a feel for the overall project. Even as little as 10 hours can tell you a great many things. You don't have to get locked into some long term contract.
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@pchiodo said in MSP or VAR or just avoid:
A true MSP is working for you, in the best interest of your company and the bottom line. They don't care who provides the equipment or the product, just that it is the right fit for your company.
Why should they care that it's right for your company? They care about billable hours. Say you want a database but aren't sure which one. The MSP happens to employ a SQL Server expert on £60k a year. The MSP needs to sell that guy's expertise to make a profit. So they're going to recommend you buy SQL Server, regardless of whether that's the best database for you.
Everyone works for their employer, not their customer. So if you're employed by an MSP, that's where your loyalty lies. It's naive to assume otherwise.
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But if a true MSP/ITSPs (guess you mean IT Service Pro's) comes in looks at what we need and says here i think what you need is 2 servers that are sync'd (For DR) with XXGB RAM, Dual Proc, 16x SSD's, i recommend a DELL server.
Does that make him a VAR now? Or would a MSP just say you need 2 servers that have XYZ off you go, or use my VAR to find you server or two e.g. DELL, HP, IBM, SCALE etc that meets XYZ requirements?
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@hobbit666 said in MSP or VAR or just avoid:
But if a true MSP/ITSPs (guess you mean IT Service Pro's) comes in looks at what we need and says here i think what you need is 2 servers that are sync'd (For DR) with XXGB RAM, Dual Proc, 16x SSD's, i recommend a DELL server.
Does that make him a VAR now? Or would a MSP just say you need 2 servers that have XYZ off you go, or use my VAR to find you server or two e.g. DELL, HP, IBM, SCALE etc that meets XYZ requirements?
If that is all they do, not a VAR. I do that all the time.
But the purchase is direct from an actual VAR (CCB, CDW) or the vendor (Dell, XByte).
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@hobbit666 said in MSP or VAR or just avoid:
But if a true MSP/ITSPs (guess you mean IT Service Pro's)
MSP - Managed Service Provider
ITSP - IT Service Provider.All MSP are ITSP, it is a subset.
Not all ITSP are MSP.
I think @scottalanmiller talked about this a few posts back, and certainly in a blog post that someone else can get the link for.
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@carnival-boy said in MSP or VAR or just avoid:
@pchiodo said in MSP or VAR or just avoid:
A true MSP is working for you, in the best interest of your company and the bottom line. They don't care who provides the equipment or the product, just that it is the right fit for your company.
Why should they care that it's right for your company? They care about billable hours.
- They are paid to care and they have an ethical responsibility, the opposite of a VAR which is paid to look after their own interests.
- Many MSPs don't work on billable hours.
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@carnival-boy said in MSP or VAR or just avoid:
The MSP happens to employ a SQL Server expert on £60k a year. The MSP needs to sell that guy's expertise to make a profit. So they're going to recommend you buy SQL Server, regardless of whether that's the best database for you.
This part is true to a point. However, no more or less true than internal IT staff has the same effect. Lesso actually. If you staff your company to only employ people who can work on SQL Server, you can be sure that they are going to find ways to make sure that you use SQL Server.
An MSP you should always hire based on their range of skills, never to do only a single task. So while the concept is correct - that MSPs will push you towards the skills they posses, you have to keep it in context that this is an improvement over the same effect without an MSP.
The argument here is that MSPs are not perfect. Nothing is. The important part is that they are the best option. No option is perfect, but some are reckless, some as okay, some are the best.
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@carnival-boy said in MSP or VAR or just avoid:
Everyone works for their employer, not their customer. So if you're employed by an MSP, that's where your loyalty lies. It's naive to assume otherwise.
This is very misleading. MSPs have a stronger individual financial interest in taking care of customers than internal IT staff does. Internal IT staff has way more leverage for personal gain, and is far less at risk of employer displeasure. The loyalty of most staff is to themselves, not their employer or client. MSPs create way more opportunity for the individuals to be aligned with the customer, than internal IT staff does.
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@hobbit666 said in MSP or VAR or just avoid:
But if a true MSP/ITSPs (guess you mean IT Service Pro's) comes in looks at what we need and says here i think what you need is 2 servers that are sync'd (For DR) with XXGB RAM, Dual Proc, 16x SSD's, i recommend a DELL server.
Does that make him a VAR now?
All of this is red herrings.
One question... does the company in question sell things?
If yes, VAR.
If not, not a VAR.That's it. The only question, and the answer is simple.
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@hobbit666 said in MSP or VAR or just avoid:
But if a true MSP/ITSPs (guess you mean IT Service Pro's) comes in looks at what we need and says here i think what you need is 2 servers that are sync'd (For DR) with XXGB RAM, Dual Proc, 16x SSD's, i recommend a DELL server.
You do this for your business too, right? This is just part of being in IT.
Remember, MSPs and ITSPs "do IT", that's their business.
VARs sell products, that's their business. -
@hobbit666 said in MSP or VAR or just avoid:
Or would a MSP just say you need 2 servers that have XYZ off you go, or use my VAR to find you server or two e.g. DELL, HP, IBM, SCALE etc that meets XYZ requirements?
An MSP acts identically to any IT staffer in that scenario. You IT Pro (in house, like most of us here) would decide what is needed and tell the company what to buy. They would not run out, make a deal with Dell, and come back and make the company buy from them! An ITSP is just IT that is outsourced, that's all. So they behave exactly like internal IT staff. They do the same things, they act the same way. They can even be full time, on site, completely dedicated to the customer.
The things that make ITSPs unique compared to internal IT staff is that they are easier to hire and fire, have more long term ties to the customers, are less risky, and have the assumed benefits of scale.
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@hobbit666 said in MSP or VAR or just avoid:
...or use my VAR to find you server or two e.g. DELL, HP, IBM, SCALE etc that meets XYZ requirements?
As a matter of good practice, you want your VAR to be as controlled as possible. You should pretty much always give them the models, specs, details, etc. of what you need. The VAR is not IT, think of them as secretaries with access to technical catalogues. IT and IT alone is responsible for getting the right system for the company, a VAR has zero responsibility there.
So while you CAN ask your VAR questions like this, it's a problem. Because the VAR will only respond withing their range of sales, which is never how you want information, and their responses will be influences by things that are negative to you, like margins.
