XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective
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@matteo-nunziati said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
BACK ON TOPIC:
yeah I really like the pay per service approach. XOA would be nice if you have to pay for a professional setup and/or a flat fee for annual support. Usually opensource companies run on this: ask money for high grade professional support, not for the product.
The issue is that there is a flat fee for each level of service, and that the flat fee is exorbitant compared to just installing it your self.
The only item that isn't currently available AFAIK is XOSAN.
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@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@matteo-nunziati said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
BACK ON TOPIC:
yeah I really like the pay per service approach. XOA would be nice if you have to pay for a professional setup and/or a flat fee for annual support. Usually opensource companies run on this: ask money for high grade professional support, not for the product.
The issue is that there is a flat fee for each level of service, and that the flat fee is exorbitant compared to just installing it your self.
The only item that isn't currently available AFAIK is XOSAN.
You shouldn't be comparing the cost of the product. You should be comparing the cost/value of support versus no support, especially if XOSAN is not something you care about. Competitors to XOSAN are in some cases free, so that further removes cash worthiness of that feature, and drives to only looking at the value of the support.
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The value of support is only worthwhile if I don't have to install it myself. From there all support goes out the window and falls to the community to help with.
I totally understand what you're saying, but it's impossible to evaluate supports worthiness when there is community support as well.
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The reason that the value of support going down is with community support and self installation anything could be the culprit with both the installer and updater.
So attempting to evaluate that aspect is impossible as the dev team may look at an issue and say "not something I can help you with" but a community member can dig in and assist at no cost.
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Now if personally, I'm having an issue would just throw the box away and install a new one. Because I can export and import my config files.
Which pulls in all of the details from the old box. So many odd issues that I may have aren't worth my time to investigate.
And is why you'll see me tell people to just build a new box.
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@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
The value of support is only worthwhile if I don't have to install it myself. From there all support goes out the window and falls to the community to help with.
I totally understand what you're saying, but it's impossible to evaluate supports worthiness when there is community support as well.
So you're saying that you find zero value in support from the vendor?
When I buy something like Veeam, vendor support is one of the most valuable things I feel that I get. Sure I might not use it much, but when shit hits the fan, the ability to get help fast from those that know the product is awesome.That said, I continue to be amazed at how mostly fast I can get help from community forums, but they are often still slower than direct support from the vendor, but this does not preclude a fees times where the forums where faster.
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@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
The reason that the value of support going down is with community support and self installation anything could be the culprit with both the installer and updater.
So attempting to evaluate that aspect is impossible as the dev team may look at an issue and say "not something I can help you with" but a community member can dig in and assist at no cost.
The big word there is "can"
There is no promise they will be there when you need them.And in this case if you have support you also have an appliance, so no self install.
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No, I'm saying if the solution is open source don't also have a "closed" version that the developer will support. Simplify the entire thing, create an all in one appliance and allow people to outright buy support. Not the product/features.
That would eliminate the need to have the community installer and updater (but it could still exist). This then allows people and businesses to say "well that is awesome, lets get support"
Rather than saying "shit. . . it cost so much for support, but I can just install the community version and wing it"
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@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
The reason that the value of support going down is with community support and self installation anything could be the culprit with both the installer and updater.
So attempting to evaluate that aspect is impossible as the dev team may look at an issue and say "not something I can help you with" but a community member can dig in and assist at no cost.
The big word there is "can"
There is no promise they will be there when you need them.And in this case if you have support you also have an appliance, so no self install.
The point your glossing over (I believe) is that if you need additional features you're paying substantially more per month. With a different appliance.
There is functionality disabled in each different version of XOA. But with XO everything is there for you to use or not. A flat support fee "for all you can eat" would drive the community installer usefulness down and drive up XOA's value and support value substantially.
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@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
No, I'm saying if the solution is open source don't also have a "closed" version that the developer will support. Simplify the entire thing, create an all in one appliance and allow people to outright buy support. Not the product/features.
That would eliminate the need to have the community installer and updater (but it could still exist). This then allows people and businesses to say "well that is awesome, lets get support"
Rather than saying "shit. . . it cost so much for support, but I can just install the community version and wing it"
If they just give away a the whole package, your company wouldn't pay a dime for support. You already said as much.
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@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@matteo-nunziati said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
BACK ON TOPIC:
yeah I really like the pay per service approach. XOA would be nice if you have to pay for a professional setup and/or a flat fee for annual support. Usually opensource companies run on this: ask money for high grade professional support, not for the product.
The issue is that there is a flat fee for each level of service, and that the flat fee is exorbitant compared to just installing it your self.
The only item that isn't currently available AFAIK is XOSAN.
yes I meant 1 price for any kind of product, than have L1/L2 support when needed. Not to pay this for a certain level of features.
just give the all-inclusive and ask for support contracts. hell even SLA could be differentiators but not the product.
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@matteo-nunziati said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
I agree only if you mean that the SMB market in Europe will never pay for a service. But most of market in Europe is SMB.
Are you sure? Everything I've seen first hand and heard from Europeans talking about problems in the space has been that there is SOHO everywhere, obviously, but then huge gaps where SMB struggles because of regulations and mindset and only larger companies have a tendency to make it.
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@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
The value of support is only worthwhile if I don't have to install it myself. From there all support goes out the window and falls to the community to help with.
I totally understand what you're saying, but it's impossible to evaluate supports worthiness when there is community support as well.
Also important to remember that in most cases (without XO-SAN) it's not a critical path product. If it is down, your infrastructure is still fine.
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@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
Now if personally, I'm having an issue would just throw the box away and install a new one. Because I can export and import my config files.
Which pulls in all of the details from the old box. So many odd issues that I may have aren't worth my time to investigate.
And is why you'll see me tell people to just build a new box.
Which is really the case with loads of new systems today. Build it in a repeatable way and you don't need to worry about fixing things, just start fresh in a minute. With a totally non-critical path system like this, that's trivial.
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@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
The value of support is only worthwhile if I don't have to install it myself. From there all support goes out the window and falls to the community to help with.
I totally understand what you're saying, but it's impossible to evaluate supports worthiness when there is community support as well.
So you're saying that you find zero value in support from the vendor?
When I buy something like Veeam, vendor support is one of the most valuable things I feel that I get. Sure I might not use it much, but when shit hits the fan, the ability to get help fast from those that know the product is awesome.That said, I continue to be amazed at how mostly fast I can get help from community forums, but they are often still slower than direct support from the vendor, but this does not preclude a fees times where the forums where faster.
I've essentially never used vendor support. I've never used it from any operating system, platform, storage, backup or enterprise app vendor. Hardware, yes of course, there is no way around that. It wasn't until being in Spiceworks that even realized how people could use those vendors. As the IT guy, I was always led to believe that knowing the product and fixing it was my job since the non-IT people could just engage the vendor if that's what they were going to do.
I agree that having that support option is really valuable, but gauging its value can be tough. What IS the value of a service that I can pretty safely say there is zero chance I will use?
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@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
The reason that the value of support going down is with community support and self installation anything could be the culprit with both the installer and updater.
So attempting to evaluate that aspect is impossible as the dev team may look at an issue and say "not something I can help you with" but a community member can dig in and assist at no cost.
The big word there is "can"
There is no promise they will be there when you need them.And in this case if you have support you also have an appliance, so no self install.
That's debatable. Which is more reliable, the promise that the ML community will be here or the promise that some vendor will? Have you ever had a vendor go out of business or not provide support? Has ML ever gone away? I'm not saying that vendor support isn't a good thing. I'm just saying that paying and getting promises aren't the same as guarantees. At some point, reliable community best effort will surpass a vendor promise.
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@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
That's debatable. Which is more reliable, the promise that the ML community will be here or the promise that some vendor will? Have you ever had a vendor go out of business or not provide support? Has ML ever gone away? I'm not saying that vendor support isn't a good thing. I'm just saying that paying and getting promises aren't the same as guarantees. At some point, reliable community best effort will surpass a vendor promise.
This right here is why the value of support from the dev has me (and I imagine many others) concerned. Statements along the lines of "it costs us to much money to take your money" only increases the value of community support through the roof.
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@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
No, I'm saying if the solution is open source don't also have a "closed" version that the developer will support. Simplify the entire thing, create an all in one appliance and allow people to outright buy support. Not the product/features.
That would eliminate the need to have the community installer and updater (but it could still exist). This then allows people and businesses to say "well that is awesome, lets get support"
Rather than saying "shit. . . it cost so much for support, but I can just install the community version and wing it"
I agree. Nothing "wrong" with the XOA model, I just don't think it makes business sense and it certainly does not make sense for me as a potential customer.
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@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
The reason that the value of support going down is with community support and self installation anything could be the culprit with both the installer and updater.
So attempting to evaluate that aspect is impossible as the dev team may look at an issue and say "not something I can help you with" but a community member can dig in and assist at no cost.
The big word there is "can"
There is no promise they will be there when you need them.And in this case if you have support you also have an appliance, so no self install.
That's debatable. Which is more reliable, the promise that the ML community will be here or the promise that some vendor will? Have you ever had a vendor go out of business or not provide support? Has ML ever gone away? I'm not saying that vendor support isn't a good thing. I'm just saying that paying and getting promises aren't the same as guarantees. At some point, reliable community best effort will surpass a vendor promise.
And for most, when that happens, you move onto a new product.
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@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
The reason that the value of support going down is with community support and self installation anything could be the culprit with both the installer and updater.
So attempting to evaluate that aspect is impossible as the dev team may look at an issue and say "not something I can help you with" but a community member can dig in and assist at no cost.
The big word there is "can"
There is no promise they will be there when you need them.And in this case if you have support you also have an appliance, so no self install.
That's debatable. Which is more reliable, the promise that the ML community will be here or the promise that some vendor will? Have you ever had a vendor go out of business or not provide support? Has ML ever gone away? I'm not saying that vendor support isn't a good thing. I'm just saying that paying and getting promises aren't the same as guarantees. At some point, reliable community best effort will surpass a vendor promise.
And for most, when that happens, you move onto a new product.
You can't just replace your hypervisor and SPoG in an instance. Sure you can do it, but it takes planning & time, which cost money.
You're just playing devils advocate for whatever reason and it's really pissing me off.
