Solved Issue installing Korora
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@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
Canonical outright says that they don't provide support for LTS under that condition
Again, no they don't. You say they do, but they have never stated that anywhere else.
Let's flip it around. Have they stated something else to YOU when you made a support request for a proved stability issue?
No. I don't pay them for support, but I do know someone who did. And they got it when they needed it.
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What we have is very little evidence. What we have accumulated so far is....
One extremely powerful and important anecdote that if true (I was there, it's pretty reliable) is enormously significant to the point, to me, of being enough alone to either make the product garbage or the support issue qualify as "unsupported" regardless of support provided (it's the case paid for.)
And nothing but heresay to the contrary. Not a single example of contrary evidence, just assumption.
While one anecdotal case is just one case, it's also the ONLY case. Do you see the problem there?
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@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
Find me another person who says Ubuntu LTS isn't acutally LTS and they have had experience where Canonical won't support it.
You have two logical gaps here...
- You have zero evidence to the contrary. The singular evidence we have is this one. No one that I've seen and no one mentioned here has ever tested this theory and gotten the support, only failed to get it (and got told why and what the policy was.) That you are denying Canonicals' own statement shocks me.
- Even if nine out of ten people get support in this kind of condition, but 10% get denied by policy... is that enough for you to call it "supported." Under no circumstance would I or any business person that I know call that supported.
You have no evidence either. It's just you saying something.
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What we (I) know....
- LTS has massive stability issues to the point of being useless.
- Canonical acknowledged the stability issues and that it made the product useless.
- Canonical acknowledged the support agreement.
- Canonical stated that the support agreement required that LTS be abandoned and the current release be used to continue support on an issue of that magnitude.
- No dissenting example has ever been produced in years of discussing this issue.
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@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
What we have is very little evidence. What we have accumulated so far is....
One extremely powerful and important anecdote that if true (I was there, it's pretty reliable) is enormously significant to the point, to me, of being enough alone to either make the product garbage or the support issue qualify as "unsupported" regardless of support provided (it's the case paid for.)
And nothing but heresay to the contrary. Not a single example of contrary evidence, just assumption.
While one anecdotal case is just one case, it's also the ONLY case. Do you see the problem there?
And my point is, it's a giant case that someone else would have encountered at the time. You weren't the only company running Ubuntu. If this would have happened, everyone would know about it.
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@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
You have no evidence either. It's just you saying something.
Right. Your entire case rests on calling me a liar. You won't even state that you have information that I'm lying, just that you won't accept what I say because you think it's a lie.
That's fine, but that's your entire case.
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@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
You have no evidence either. It's just you saying something.
Right. Your entire case rests on calling me a liar. You won't even state that you have information that I'm lying, just that you won't accept what I say because you think it's a lie.
That's fine, but that's your entire case.
No one is calling you a liar. But I have seen you misread enough posts to know it's a viable possibility that the information was misunderstood somewhere.
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@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
And my point is, it's a giant case that someone else would have encountered at the time. You weren't the only company running Ubuntu. If this would have happened, everyone would know about it.
They did. Canonical had already found the issue with other customers, and their fix was to have them all update. And they all did or else lived with the issue (not all companies were impacted to the same degree, obviously.)
Everyone would NOT know about it, race conditions were rare. That's a false assumption. It was enough that they knew and had addressed it. It was affecting very few customers and only high performance ones. Most customers didn't pay for support so just had to update silently. Those that paid for support were all told, presumably, the same thing.
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@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
Everyone would NOT know about it, race conditions were rare.
Obviously I meant everyone who encountered the issue. Not everyone everywhere.
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@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
You have no evidence either. It's just you saying something.
Right. Your entire case rests on calling me a liar. You won't even state that you have information that I'm lying, just that you won't accept what I say because you think it's a lie.
That's fine, but that's your entire case.
No one is calling you a liar. But I have seen you misread enough posts to know it's a viable possibility that the information was misunderstood somewhere.
Of course, although I'm pretty shocked that the degree to which I've called this to Ubuntu's attention publicly and talked to companies about this that neither the vendor nor no IT pro nor no company has ever stated that this was questionable. I've never been presented with even the feeblest example of it not being true, not once. And you know how often I talk about it.
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@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
Canonical stated that the support agreement required that LTS be abandoned and the current release be used to continue support on an issue of that magnitude.
See this is the issue. What terms did you sign that wouldn't allow this to be grounds for court?
Somehow you signed terms for support, but they are telling you to use a product that they don't even actually support?
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@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
Everyone would NOT know about it, race conditions were rare.
Obviously I meant everyone who encountered the issue. Not everyone everywhere.
Well, it would be...
- People who encountered the issue....
- Over and over again, some people only got it once in a while...
- Who had enough trained staff to identify the race condition...
- Who had paid Canonical support...
- Who ran Ubuntu in production....
- Who bothered to call Canonical about it....
- And then everyone put the pieces together.
Even when it happened, it took a bit to identify it. But Canonical knew about the issue. That was public. ANd it was addressed. But not addressed in LTS.
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@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
You have no evidence either. It's just you saying something.
Right. Your entire case rests on calling me a liar. You won't even state that you have information that I'm lying, just that you won't accept what I say because you think it's a lie.
That's fine, but that's your entire case.
No one is calling you a liar. But I have seen you misread enough posts to know it's a viable possibility that the information was misunderstood somewhere.
Of course, although I'm pretty shocked that the degree to which I've called this to Ubuntu's attention publicly and talked to companies about this that neither the vendor nor no IT pro nor no company has ever stated that this was questionable. I've never been presented with even the feeblest example of it not being true, not once. And you know how often I talk about it.
I think they probably just didn't want to get into the discussion we are in. I have those moments.
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@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
Everyone would NOT know about it, race conditions were rare.
Obviously I meant everyone who encountered the issue. Not everyone everywhere.
Well, it would be...
- People who encountered the issue....
- Over and over again, some people only got it once in a while...
- Who had enough trained staff to identify the race condition...
- Who had paid Canonical support...
- Who ran Ubuntu in production....
- Who bothered to call Canonical about it....
- And then everyone put the pieces together.
Even when it happened, it took a bit to identify it. But Canonical knew about the issue. That was public. ANd it was addressed. But not addressed in LTS.
Which release?
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@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
Canonical stated that the support agreement required that LTS be abandoned and the current release be used to continue support on an issue of that magnitude.
See this is the issue. What terms did you sign that wouldn't allow this to be grounds for court?
Somehow you signed terms for support, but they are telling you to use a product that they don't even actually support?
This assumes a few things...
- That the terms actually stated that LTS would get the support and that updating was not necessary. Canonical claimed that this is not what the support agreement stated.
- That an investment bank would be willing to go to court and expose a race condition on their system which would cost them billions in client confidence.
You forget that banks can't go public with this stuff. Lots of companies cannot. So what seems obvious about a legal matter, is not really that obvious. Did Canonical play that card? Unlikely. But it worked out in their favour.
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@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
Everyone would NOT know about it, race conditions were rare.
Obviously I meant everyone who encountered the issue. Not everyone everywhere.
Well, it would be...
- People who encountered the issue....
- Over and over again, some people only got it once in a while...
- Who had enough trained staff to identify the race condition...
- Who had paid Canonical support...
- Who ran Ubuntu in production....
- Who bothered to call Canonical about it....
- And then everyone put the pieces together.
Even when it happened, it took a bit to identify it. But Canonical knew about the issue. That was public. ANd it was addressed. But not addressed in LTS.
Which release?
10.04 LTS had the bug. I can't remember if the fix was in 10.10 or in 11.04. But it was fixed in a non-LTS release before 12.04.
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@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
Everyone would NOT know about it, race conditions were rare.
Obviously I meant everyone who encountered the issue. Not everyone everywhere.
Well, it would be...
- People who encountered the issue....
- Over and over again, some people only got it once in a while...
- Who had enough trained staff to identify the race condition...
- Who had paid Canonical support...
- Who ran Ubuntu in production....
- Who bothered to call Canonical about it....
- And then everyone put the pieces together.
Even when it happened, it took a bit to identify it. But Canonical knew about the issue. That was public. ANd it was addressed. But not addressed in LTS.
Which release?
10.04 LTS had the bug. I can't remember if the fix was in 10.10 or in 11.04. But it was fixed in a non-LTS release before 12.04.
Right. So much has changed since then. That was in the weird Netbook edition days. After 12.04 things have really changed. I think saying a company continues to not support something that they claim to support even after they've changed most of their policies is ridiculous.
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@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
I think they probably just didn't want to get into the discussion we are in. I have those moments.
That's not a reasonable excuse for them. The issue that I have is 100% valid, and Canonical themselves were open that the issue existed and the support issues. Given that the vendor agreed in private and has never claimed otherwise in public, we are purely have a discussion of "real world example" vs. "public impression." But the public impression is not being promoted by Canonical anywhere of which I am aware.
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@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
Everyone would NOT know about it, race conditions were rare.
Obviously I meant everyone who encountered the issue. Not everyone everywhere.
Well, it would be...
- People who encountered the issue....
- Over and over again, some people only got it once in a while...
- Who had enough trained staff to identify the race condition...
- Who had paid Canonical support...
- Who ran Ubuntu in production....
- Who bothered to call Canonical about it....
- And then everyone put the pieces together.
Even when it happened, it took a bit to identify it. But Canonical knew about the issue. That was public. ANd it was addressed. But not addressed in LTS.
Which release?
10.04 LTS had the bug. I can't remember if the fix was in 10.10 or in 11.04. But it was fixed in a non-LTS release before 12.04.
Right. So much has changed since then. That was in the weird Netbook edition days. After 12.04 things have really changed. I think saying a company continues to not support something that they claim to support even after they've changed most of their policies is ridiculous.
Do they claim to support? That's where we disagree. I'm not calling Canonical a liar, I think that people make bad assumptions.
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Let me ask this a totally different way....
- What makes you believe that LTS receives "full" support, meaning the kind of support we expect from RHEL, for stability issues on Ubuntu LTS? Has Canonical ever promised you this support? AFAIK, they have never promised it to me.
- I have no reason to believe that the agreement that we had with Canonical was not honoured. The belief was that we had just assumed that LTS was going to get full support, but that was not what the agreement said. Bad assumptions.
- I've never been upset with Canonical about this. AFAIK this is just a mistake in the community with lots of customers and not even customers passing bad info around amongst themselves with Canonical not in the picture at all.
- Looking up the support options, I don't see anything from Canonical publicly to suggest that LTS gets special support.
