Indoctrination into Islam?
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@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@DustinB3403 said:
So for introducing religion into a school, I do believe the teacher should be held accountable, since schools are supposed to be free of religion. Of all forms.
They are? Not in the US they are not. The US has very clear first amendment guaranteeing the state's freedom to choose and push religion. Schools have no mandate to be free of religion, there is no suggestion of that in the US. Very much the opposite. They are free to be arms of religious groups until the first amendment is repealed.
My understanding, and several court cases back it up, of the establishment clause prevents this from happening.
No, it has happened, for many years a few states had official religions. The states have every right, and have exercised it, to do this. The constitution guarantees it. That's what the first amendment IS. The federal government has no right to step in to the establishment of religion in the states.
I'm not arguing that it has happened but the interpretation seems to have changed to reflect the establishment clause covers all US entities, including state and local governments, there have been quite a few court cases in recent times that reflect that interpretation.
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@coliver said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@DustinB3403 said:
So for introducing religion into a school, I do believe the teacher should be held accountable, since schools are supposed to be free of religion. Of all forms.
They are? Not in the US they are not. The US has very clear first amendment guaranteeing the state's freedom to choose and push religion. Schools have no mandate to be free of religion, there is no suggestion of that in the US. Very much the opposite. They are free to be arms of religious groups until the first amendment is repealed.
My understanding, and several court cases back it up, of the establishment clause prevents this from happening.
Interesting, I'm unaware of the courts actively choosing to alter law. That would mean that the SC is now making law instead of reading it and is a very, very bad thing. Not that that is not how the law would hopefully be used, but there is no question about what the law was written as. It means the government has broken down and there is no further need for Congress and we are not really acting as a Republic with the law makers being appointed rather than elected.
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Do you have any sources on those cases? Would be interesting to see how they used constitutional law to apply to non-federal entities.
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Look at the incorporation amendment (14th I think?) that basically say the bill of rights would be applied to both federal, state, and local governments. I'll get you a link to one of the cases. I think it had to do with a New York town saying a prayer before every town meeting.
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Here is one directly related to what we are talking about:
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Interesting, I'm just starting to read it, but several Rabbi and Rabbinical organizations complained because they didn't believe in God as a tenant of their religious.
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Here is where we get the Lemon test from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_v._Kurtzman
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@coliver said:
Here is one directly related to what we are talking about:
Interesting that they didn't fight it based on the constitution. They fought it on other grounds, when it was the constitution that said that Congress specifically could make no law respecting religion... which would mean that any subsequent law or interpretation would be unconstitutional if it was believed to have any respect to religion.
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@coliver said:
Here is where we get the Lemon test from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_v._Kurtzman
Lemon Law would not apply here because it was giving Federal money to religious organizations.
That might be where much of the public school stuff comes from... that Federal funds are involved. But you can run a public school without them and I believe that the court would have no say there in that case. Obviously if the school is being used to funnel federal funds to religious groups, that's a different issue.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
Here is where we get the Lemon test from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_v._Kurtzman
Lemon Law would not apply here because it was giving Federal money to religious organizations.
That might be where much of the public school stuff comes from... that Federal funds are involved. But you can run a public school without them and I believe that the court would have no say there in that case. Obviously if the school is being used to funnel federal funds to religious groups, that's a different issue.
That was my understanding as well. Let me see if I can't find the most recent SC case where a town in Upstate NY was reciting prayers before every meeting. The SC ruled that the prayers could continue providing they gave equal time to all people requesting that spot.
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Texas is doing the prayer "moment of silence" in schools currently.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Texas is doing the prayer "moment of silence" in schools currently.
There was a case about that too. Moments of silence are ok as long as a school official isn't directing it toward anything... you're really testing my recall here.
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I read both the Lemon law and the Engel wiki pages.
Both are summarizing that by supporting any religion in a Public office (school or otherwise) in any capacity with public money that it's against the constitution and therefor illegal.
Now, using school time and assigning an assignment like this one, might light a firestorm under some parent's asses, but will the government step in to reprimand the school and teach?
Or was/is next weeks assignment calligraphy of the old testament?
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@DustinB3403 said:
Both are summarizing that by supporting any religion in a Public office (school or otherwise) in any capacity with public money that it's against the constitution and therefor illegal.
Public money? Or Federal money? I think in both cases it was federal involved and only because of that was the SC even in a position to hear the case.
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@DustinB3403 said:
Or was/is next weeks assignment calligraphy of the old testament?
There is no calligraphy of the old testament. That's the thing, that's why I had the point about talking about European art. Every school I know teaches about art history and you learn about Christian art. So it is completely expected that this is just part of the normal class. This is just a single homework assignment being pulled out of context.
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@DustinB3403 said:
I read both the Lemon law and the Engel wiki pages.
Both are summarizing that by supporting any religion in a Public office (school or otherwise) in any capacity with public money that it's against the constitution and therefor illegal.
Now, using school time and assigning an assignment like this one, might light a firestorm under some parent's asses, but will the government step in to reprimand the school and teach?
Or was/is next weeks assignment calligraphy of the old testament?
It very well might be. The government probably won't step into this as it isn't a clear case of establishment, at least not as I see it. I may be misinterpreting the lesson but it doesn't seem like they are teaching calligraphy, as that wasn't the point of the assignment (this seems like it was a single question on a sheet of paper) the point of the lesson was the learn about Islam, I'm sure there were questions and information about the pillars of Islam too... if we follow the same logic that would be considered indoctrination too.
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@coliver said:
@DustinB3403 said:
I read both the Lemon law and the Engel wiki pages.
Both are summarizing that by supporting any religion in a Public office (school or otherwise) in any capacity with public money that it's against the constitution and therefor illegal.
Now, using school time and assigning an assignment like this one, might light a firestorm under some parent's asses, but will the government step in to reprimand the school and teach?
Or was/is next weeks assignment calligraphy of the old testament?
It very well might be. The government probably won't step into this as it isn't a clear case of establishment, at least not as I see it. I may be misinterpreting the lesson but it doesn't seem like they are teaching calligraphy, as that wasn't the point of the assignment (this seems like it was a single question on a sheet of paper) the point of the lesson was the learn about Islam, I'm sure there were questions and information about the pillars of Islam too... if we follow the same logic that would be considered indoctrination too.
The same as learning about World War II would be considered indoctrination into Italian Fascism!
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Tried to avoid anything German related there, lol.
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@scottalanmiller Calligraphy is just fancy hand writing.
I'm certain someone, somewhere has written something in calligraphy of the old testament that can be used as an assignment.
IE if the class is teaching about calligraphy (and not actually about religion) then multiple assignments should be provided throughout the class year.
And in this case, religious examples used for the assignment. (To be fair to everyone)
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@DustinB3403 said:
@scottalanmiller Calligraphy is just fancy hand writing.
you can say all art is just fancy doodling. Calligraphy here is a specific art that arose as part of the limitations around iconography in Islam. It's as much art as anything else. And it is absolutely integral to Arabic cultural studies. If you travel the Arab world it is completely defining to them as calligraphy and mosaics are their key art forms and means of graphical expression.
