4th Ammendment
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Anyone heard something like this before?
With both safes and passwords/biometrics, courts in the US are reaching the same conclusion: it's not the combination or password or fingerprint or whatever that's protected by the 4th Amendment, but the contents they unlock. The contents are often considered testimonial, and a warrant specifying unlocking and getting the content is considered a general warrant which is constitutionally prohibited.
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Heard of courts reaching that conclusion, you mean?
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The general work around has been that most of the US is not technically covered by the constitution so it is generally worked around that way.
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@scottalanmiller said in 4th Ammendment:
The general work around has been that most of the US is not technically covered by the constitution so it is generally worked around that way.
what?
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From here: https://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html
The Right To Privacy
The Constitution does not specifically mention a right to privacy. However, Supreme Court decisions over the years have established that the right to privacy is a basic human right, and as such is protected by virtue of the 9th Amendment. The right to privacy has come to the public's attention via several controversial Supreme Court rulings, including several dealing with contraception (the Griswold and Eisenstadt cases), interracial marriage (the Loving case), and abortion (the well-known Roe v Wade case). In addition, it is said that a right to privacy is inherent in many of the amendments in the Bill of Rights, such as the 3rd, the 4th's search and seizure limits, and the 5th's self-incrimination limit.
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@WrCombs said in 4th Ammendment:
From here: https://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html
The Right To Privacy
The Constitution does not specifically mention a right to privacy. However, Supreme Court decisions over the years have established that the right to privacy is a basic human right, and as such is protected by virtue of the 9th Amendment. The right to privacy has come to the public's attention via several controversial Supreme Court rulings, including several dealing with contraception (the Griswold and Eisenstadt cases), interracial marriage (the Loving case), and abortion (the well-known Roe v Wade case). In addition, it is said that a right to privacy is inherent in many of the amendments in the Bill of Rights, such as the 3rd, the 4th's search and seizure limits, and the 5th's self-incrimination limit.
So the way I take this is as it pertains to IT and information, as you have the right to privacy, which you can protect, but you don't really have to but its a really good idea to do so.
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@scottalanmiller said in 4th Ammendment:
Heard of courts reaching that conclusion, you mean?
Probably what he meant.
Yes it has been in the news recently that police cannot force you to use biometrics to unlock a phone. It has long been known that they cannot make you enter a password.
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@WrCombs said in 4th Ammendment:
@WrCombs said in 4th Ammendment:
From here: https://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html
The Right To Privacy
The Constitution does not specifically mention a right to privacy. However, Supreme Court decisions over the years have established that the right to privacy is a basic human right, and as such is protected by virtue of the 9th Amendment. The right to privacy has come to the public's attention via several controversial Supreme Court rulings, including several dealing with contraception (the Griswold and Eisenstadt cases), interracial marriage (the Loving case), and abortion (the well-known Roe v Wade case). In addition, it is said that a right to privacy is inherent in many of the amendments in the Bill of Rights, such as the 3rd, the 4th's search and seizure limits, and the 5th's self-incrimination limit.
So the way I take this is as it pertains to IT and information, as you have the right to privacy, which you can protect, but you don't really have to but its a really good idea to do so.
This has nothing to do with what @Dashrender posted, nor @scottalanmiller's replies.
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@scottalanmiller said in 4th Ammendment:
The general work around has been that most of the US is not technically covered by the constitution so it is generally worked around that way.
Yeah - You've been posting that a lot lately - where's your evidence of that?
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@JaredBusch said in 4th Ammendment:
@scottalanmiller said in 4th Ammendment:
Heard of courts reaching that conclusion, you mean?
Probably what he meant.
Yes it has been in the news recently that police cannot force you to use biometrics to unlock a phone. It has long been known that they cannot make you enter a password.
Yes, I had heard that a state or three recently declared that a person's biometrics couldn't be used against them - though I didn't hear the reasoning behind that decision.
for example - that wouldn't be that different than a person has a key in their pocket, is the police allowed to use that key to unlock a door? Typically we'd say - hell yeah they can, but in this case, the key is your finger, and now they are saying nope you can't.
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@Dashrender said in 4th Ammendment:
Anyone heard something like this before?
With both safes and passwords/biometrics, courts in the US are reaching the same conclusion: it's not the combination or password or fingerprint or whatever that's protected by the 4th Amendment, but the contents they unlock. The contents are often considered testimonial, and a warrant specifying unlocking and getting the content is considered a general warrant which is constitutionally prohibited.
If this really stands ground - then the key in my previous post seems like to be not allowed to be used either.... unless they are going to say, only something of the person protecting it is what makes the search constitutionally prohibited.
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@Dashrender said in 4th Ammendment:
@scottalanmiller said in 4th Ammendment:
The general work around has been that most of the US is not technically covered by the constitution so it is generally worked around that way.
Yeah - You've been posting that a lot lately - where's your evidence of that?
Where have you been?
https://www.thenation.com/article/66-percent-americans-now-live-constitution-free-zone/
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ACLU says it's a violation of the constitution. But that's a hard thing to use as the basis of law, if the argument is that we are talking about where that law applies.
https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone
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This is more than a decade old and a pretty basic "need to know" thing about the US. You can't talk constitution without addressing if it applies or not.
Places like NYC, Houston, all of Florida and Michigan and in fact all of New England, no major city in the west is inside the "covered by constitution" zone. Heck, not even Washington DC!
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"The Supreme Court has clearly and repeatedly confirmed that the border search exception applies within 100 miles of the border of the United States as seen in cases such as United States v. Martinez-Fuerte where it was held that the Border Patrol's routine stopping of a vehicle at a permanent checkpoint located on a major highway away from the Mexican border for brief questioning of the vehicle's occupants is consistent with the Fourth Amendment."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Martinez-Fuerte
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@scottalanmiller said in 4th Ammendment:
"The Supreme Court has clearly and repeatedly confirmed that the border search exception applies within 100 miles of the border of the United States as seen in cases such as United States v. Martinez-Fuerte where it was held that the Border Patrol's routine stopping of a vehicle at a permanent checkpoint located on a major highway away from the Mexican border for brief questioning of the vehicle's occupants is consistent with the Fourth Amendment."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Martinez-Fuerte
Everything in these pages says it's only Border patrol/ Customs agents within the 100 mile mark that are exceptions to the 4th, Coming into the country they can break the 4th amendment within 100 miles, if they are border patrol - Because they are required to protect the US.
Cops, can not search your vehicle ,however, A friend of mine once said " As soon as the cops ask if they can search your vehicle- they can. Because if you say no, Its probable cause. If you say yes, You give permission."
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@WrCombs said in 4th Ammendment:
@scottalanmiller said in 4th Ammendment:
"The Supreme Court has clearly and repeatedly confirmed that the border search exception applies within 100 miles of the border of the United States as seen in cases such as United States v. Martinez-Fuerte where it was held that the Border Patrol's routine stopping of a vehicle at a permanent checkpoint located on a major highway away from the Mexican border for brief questioning of the vehicle's occupants is consistent with the Fourth Amendment."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Martinez-Fuerte
Everything in these pages says it's only Border patrol/ Customs agents within the 100 mile mark that are exceptions to the 4th, Coming into the country they can break the 4th amendment within 100 miles, if they are border patrol - Because they are required to protect the US.
Breaking the law and suspending the Constitution is never the act of defending the nation, it is an attack upon it. Once you can make any excuse to suspend the law, what law would apply? None, obviously.
